China Sports Insider Podcast

A deep dive into “Sporting Superpower”

The China Project — Wed, 23 Nov 2022 15:49:35 +0000

1:04 – As the China Sports Insider Podcast turns 50, are there still reasons to be optimistic about China’s sporting future? 2:46 – China may not be in the World Cup, but some skillfully edited videos circulating online have them winning the final – against Argentina! 4:14 – Qatar’s opening performance as host was a disappointment for rest of Asia. 7:21 – Turning to MMA, Chinese UFC star Zhang Weili is back on top with a title win at Madison Square Garden. 9:26 – The 2022 F1 season has come to a close. How did Rookie of the Year Zhou Guanyu perform and what does he have to do in 2023? 14:35 – Meanwhile, the Women’s Tennis Association’s 2023 calendar is out, but there’s no promised return to China. 17:16 – To mark the 50th episode of the podcast, Haig interviews Mark about his book “Sporting Superpower”, timed to coincide with the release of the paperback edition. 18:17 – The reception to the book has been unexpected, with talks on the book’s themes requested from around the world. 18:55 – What is the book about and why write it? 21:20 – Who is it aimed at? 24:00 – Several athletes are referenced or quoted in the book – what has been their response? 28:12 – Did anyone not like what was written? 28:51 – The challenges of interviewing athletes in China. 33:22 – Who were the most tight-lipped people? 34:34 – Any stories that didn’t make it into the book that deserve a mention here? 37:32 – What would it take for China’s sporting directives to lose focus? 40:00 – So is China’s sporting future still bright? 45:26 – Are there any plans for a Chinese version of the book? 48:25 – Some parting words from Haig.

Shankai’s Feng Tao on China’s World Cup involvement

The China Project — Sat, 05 Nov 2022 16:43:41 +0000

2:00 – Marathons around the country have been getting postponed or canceled, but Beijing’s big race remains on — for now. 5:54 – China is rumored to be launching a bid for the 2031 Women’s World Cup. What can we read into this? 7:03 – A funny story from the aftermath of the Beijing Olympics, involving a Swiss snowboarder and an unusual tattoo. 9:51 – Our guest this episode is Feng Tao, co-founder of sports marketing firm Shankai Sports, which has brokered some of the biggest deals in Chinese sports industry history and has held exclusive hospitality rights for China for every World Cup since 2010. 12:47 – The history of how many Chinese soccer fans traveled to the 2010 World Cup in South Africa, as well as subsequent tournaments. 17:04 – What will it be like if/when China gets back into the World Cup? The number of traveling fans could be insane. 17:54 – This year in Qatar, however, has been a very different picture in terms of Chinese fan involvement. 19:26 – But there are some Chinese sponsors who will have a visible presence throughout the tournament. 22:50 – Most Chinese sponsors have come from the consumer electronics sector, but dairy firm Mengniu has a very different strategy. 25:27 – The challenges of promoting Chinese brands with international markets. 29:23 – Has the global perception of China impacted business around the world? 30:03 – Feng Tao explains what he will be doing on the ground in Qatar later this month. 32:40 – How Alibaba’s multi-year Olympic deal came to be and Jack Ma’s “marriage” with Thomas Bach. 34:40 – How has China’s sports industry adapted to COVID-zero? 36:43 – One side effect of the country’s shutdown has been the growth of the domestic market. 40:27 – That’s resulted in a number of strategy pivots across the board. 42:12 – Some parting words for foreign brands and industry reps on staying involved in China.

China’s sporting Politburo Standing Committee revealed – Part II

The China Project — Mon, 24 Oct 2022 19:56:20 +0000

0:50 Some parallels between the handling of the Hu Jintao and Peng Shuai incidents. 7:17 Following on from Part I, which outlined the top seven sporting figures of the past decade, we move to Part II and reveal who are the stars to watch – starting at the top (again, no spoilers!). Out with the old, in with the…old? 10:39 Second up is Mark’s pick for best female athlete of the future. 13:05 The best male athlete serves up a surprise. 17:31 The best Olympian of the future is female, competes in a water sport, and has already reached the very top. Does that narrow it down? 19:35 The fifth award – for best team – has a new name and a new stadium. 23:34 The People’s Choice award resonated with the public this year. But this superstar’s staying power is the only question… 26:34 The coveted last slot, and winner of the DRESPY, comes out of left field. 30:00 Haig vents a bit about quarantine as the hosts prepare for their in-person reunion.

China’s Sporting Politburo Standing Committee revealed – Part I

The China Project — Sun, 16 Oct 2022 23:45:46 +0000

0:40 – It’s Day 8 of quarantine for Mark on his return to Beijing and he’s been preoccupied by the fascinating waste disposal process. 6:00 – Former guest on the show Cameron Dicker, who grew up in Shanghai, stars for the Philadelphia Eagles in his NFL debut as the Eagles stay unbeaten. 10:50 – In honor of the upcoming 20th Party Congress, Mark reveals his top 7 China sports figures of the past in a very special – and somewhat tongue-in-cheek culminating in a new award (no spoilers). 14:12 – Best female and male athletes. 18:08 – Best Olympian and best team awards. 21:06 – And you won’t want to miss the People’s Choice or the DRESPY awards. Stay tuned to see who will be in the new sporting Standing Committee – revealed next week! 28:10 Mark gives Haig a few pointers for his upcoming quarantine.

Canada’s Ivy Liao speaks from inside Chengdu’s ping pong bubble

The China Project — Fri, 30 Sep 2022 17:55:13 +0000

1:20: The FIFA World Cup is approaching. How much buzz will there be in China? 3:23: Mike Pompeo was in Taiwan this week and Mark had a passing glimpse 5:39: The Chinese women’s basketball team is into the semis at the FIBA World Cup and could challenge for a medal for the first time in 28 years. 9:33: Eileen Gu poses for her first day at school as she joins a strong list of student athletes at Stanford 12:36: Chess has been in the news for all the wrong reasons recently and a Chinese woman grandmaster has been on the end of some sexist comments 15:11: Beijing 2022 mascot Bing Dwen Dwen rides off into the sunset 18:52: The World Team Table Tennis Championships kick off this week in Chengdu, just weeks after the city exited a lockdown, showing just how important the sport is to China. 22:04: Our guest this week is Ivy Liao, a Canadian table tennis player competing in Chengdu. She speaks to us from inside the bubble. 22:23: Liao tells the story of her arduous journey to Chengdu, with all international athletes having to take a charter flight from with Dubai or Singapore, as she prepared to compete in Zero-COVID conditions. 24:38: The mental side looms large in athletes’ minds when playing in a bubble. What lies ahead for players at the event? 27:00: But have the Chinese players been mixing with players from other countries at all? 31:00 The nature of team competition: competing against an international teammate versus only playing someone from another country. 34:57: Why is China so good at table tennis and how can the rest of the world catch up? 40:20: Over the years, dozens of players from China have naturalized overseas in order to represent other countries in international competition. How are these “exports” viewed within the game? 46:40: Liao talks about her previous visits to China and connecting with her own Chinese heritage.

F1 gridlock in China and Putin’s Olympic brainwave

The China Project — Sat, 24 Sep 2022 10:06:08 +0000

0:45: Mark recounts his earthquake experience in Taiwan and highlights how the cluster of former China journalists now based on the island is affecting the overall narrative. 6:03: The livestream is back for a second week — with one crucial difference thanks to feedback from a listener/viewer. 8:10: F1 releases its 2023 calendar. Shanghai is down for April 23, but Mark promises to eat Haig’s hat if the race actually takes place. 14:32: A discussion about short-term thinking, and how it affects the development of sports in China, especially when long-term horizons are essential. That’s why David Beckham was brought to China as a CSL Ambassador, but had very little effect. 17:01: Vladimir Putin has floated the idea of an alternative sporting competition with China, India, and other SCO nations. It sounds rather like — in fact just like – the Olympics. 21:47: A former UCLA basketball player, Jalen Hill, died in Costa Rica this week, aged 22. He spoke eloquently a year ago of battling some demons, linked to a fateful trip to China in 2017. 27:04: Nike is getting in on the podcasting bandwagon in China. What can we expect?

Trouble ahead for Fosun’s Wolves? Plus lockdown tournaments and All-Star games

The China Project — Fri, 16 Sep 2022 15:25:53 +0000

0:45 The (new!) livestream starts with some differences in playing club tennis around the world. 2:37 Both hosts express anxiety about their upcoming returns to Beijing. 5:14 Chengdu is set to go ahead with the World Team Table Tennis Championships later this month, despite an ongoing lockdown. What lessons have organizers learned from the Beijing Olympic closed loop? And has China’s dominance in the sport impacted the decision to proceed? 11:58 One of the biggest storylines from Beijing 2022, the Kamila Valieva doping scandal, has some updates from Russia. What can we expect next — and when? 16:44 A shoutout to former podcast guest Rachel Llanes, who just accepted a job with the San Jose Sharks organization. 18:24: The IOC releases its human rights strategy six months after the Beijing Olympics. What’s the significance of this, especially given the recent UN report on Xinjiang? 20:48: What does this mean for future Olympic host cities? Could Saudi Arabia ever be in the mix? 23:38: Chelsea’s new American owner suggested the possibility of an All-Star game for the Premier League, with English fans up in arms. But is it really such a big deal? 27:53: A Bloomberg report this week says that Fosun, the Chinese conglomerate that owns Premier League team Wolverhampton Wanderers, may be in financial trouble. What does that mean for the club?

Tanking with Chinese characteristics, and a surprising tennis breakthrough

The China Project — Thu, 08 Sep 2022 16:41:15 +0000

The China Sports Insider Podcast is back after a busy summer and will continue to evolve as Zero COVID continues to dominate the sports industry in China.

6:10 – To illustrate that point, the Chinese women’s volleyball team competed at a recent tournament in the Philippines wearing N95 masks during their game — something that drew unusual criticism from fans online. 8:48 – The big scandal of the Chinese sporting summer was former badminton world champion Ye Zhaoying revealing to Danish TV that she’d been ordered her to throw her 2000 Olympics semifinal game against teammate, Gong Zhichao, to give Gong the best chance of winning gold for China. There’s much more to this story, too. 12:20 – Can tanking ever be justified if, for example, it means there’s a greater chance to win a gold medal? A full-throated discussion with plenty of examples from the wide world of sports. 19:06 – Chinese tennis set records at the U.S. Open, but — for a change — it was the men leading the charge, with 22-year-old Wu Yibing making it to the third round. He’s one for the future after a stellar 2022, but has his development already been stunted? 25:21 – The WTA says their Finals will be held in Texas this year, after which they are “hopeful” of a return to China, but there are two main issues standing in the way — Zero COVID and Peng Shuai — so what happens next? 32:00 – Let us know what you’d like to hear on future episodes of the show. We’ll start with a debut livestream next week and take it from there!

Fighting back: Exploring China’s self-defense scene

The China Project — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 16:19:31 +0000

In an special interview edition of the show, Mark and Haig speak to Yonina Chan, who helps run the Beijing chapter of the famed Israeli self-defense system Krav Maga. (0:55) What is Krav Maga and how did Chan get into it? (2:45) One of the hottest topics in China over the last month was about the incident in Tangshan, where a group of men assaulted a group of women in a restaurant. What stood out to her about that? (5:34) What specifically made this incident a complex situation? (7:30) A rundown and explanation of different levels and strands of violence and how to evaluate them. (12:10) The importance of not victim-blaming while trying to understand the psychology behind an escalation of violence. (15:45) How the representation of violence in the media feeds into attitudes toward violence. (20:23) From a sports perspective, what kind of impact has MMA fighter Zhang Weili had on martial arts in China?

Lessons from Hong Kong’s sporting revival on the eve of the Handover anniversary

The China Project — Wed, 22 Jun 2022 20:04:15 +0000

(0:55) Recent podcast guest and F1 driver Zhou Guanyu finally has some good luck, finishing eighth at the Montreal Grand Prix. (1:36) He’s a fun follow on social media, sharing insider clips and not afraid to laugh at himself, (2:15) and the race itself was worth staying up into the small hours for — at least for Mark. (3:16) Haig attempts to steer the conversation back to his beloved Canada and their World Cup pursuits, (4:05) before the hosts discuss a new sports law in China that apparently is designed to protect the country’s honor on the world stage.

(7:03) Meanwhile, China and Taiwan have fired shots over an ID issue at the World Cup in Qatar: how to refer to Taiwanese fans — and will any of them actually be going? (8:36) The ATP’s Shanghai Masters says it’s going to be expanding from 2023, but the boys think this sounds premature — both from a COVID perspective as well as from a reputational and political angle. (11:19) Could tennis’s China swing be expanded, too? Probably not. (12:18) Make sure to check out an exciting new feature — Tweet of the Week — featuring a former NFL player, China, some toilet humor — and a bridge. Send in your suggestions for next week!

(14:30) Our guest this week is Hong Kong-based journalist Jonathan White, who’s covered sports in the Greater China region for well over a decade. (14:50) What did he make of an SCMP op-ed this week on Hong Kong’s recent sporting revival, and what lessons can the rest of China learn from what Hong Kong has achieved? (21:30) International headlines coming out of the city recently have tended to be fairly grim, but is sporting success improving morale in Hong Kong?

(24:33) Hong Kong’s football team just qualified for the Asian Cup for the first time in more than 50 years. How popular is the team in normal times? (26:51) And how soon will it be until fans can see another home game? (28:38) What about the hardcore support? How many fans will travel to support Hong Kong in the Asian Cup next summer — wherever it may be held?

(31:15) As a journalist, what are the differences White’s witnessed covering sports in both the Chinese mainland and Hong Kong? Hong Kong venues typically are more welcoming, it appears. (33:56) Mark compares the role of media outlets around the world: in China, it’s essentially PR, so why would Chinese teams want pesky journalists asking actual questions? (37:51) A discussion about the role (or lack of) fan engagement, (42:06) before White ends with some of his favorite China stories, including challenging US sprinter Jon Drummond to a race while out drinking during the 2008 Beijing Olympics.

Jeremiah Jenne on the NBA finals and being a Boston sports fan in China

The China Project — Thu, 16 Jun 2022 18:01:37 +0000

We round up the news this week with Zhang Weili’s stunning knockout win in the UFC. How long until she fights for another title (2:26)? Meanwhile, F1 driver Zhou Guanyu — a recent guest on the podcast — continues to have a run of bad luck, plagued by technical issues when driving well (3:45). Meanwhile, China’s breakout tennis star Zhang Qinwen backs up her strong run at the French Open by winning her first WTA title in Valencia (9:23), and a trip down memory lane to 2016 when then-Manchester United manager Jose Mourinho was grilled at the Bird’s Nest by a certain Haze Fan — who’s been in the news this week for entirely different reasons (11:00). Our guest this week is Jeremiah Jenne, a long-time Beijing resident, historian, podcaster, and — crucially — a big Boston sports fan (13:00). Jenne talks about what it’s been like watching the Celtics play in the NBA Finals and makes a bold prediction (15:00). Watching the games in China can be done using a variety of different methods — legal or otherwise (16:07) — but the impact of the NBA being banned from Chinese screens for the past two years has been minimal for Jenne (18:15). He recalls the time when NBA Commissioner Adam Silver pissed off the Chinese government not by what he said or did, but by revealing they had tried to silence him (19:40). There used to be a time when he could watch games with friends in pubs, but now that’s much harder (22:28). Jenne discusses why Boston sports fans got their reputation (24:00) and wonders whether there is a Premier League equivalent to shit-talker-in-chief Larry Bird (28:56). Another Boston team, the Patriots, once opened an office in China, but it was a short-lived affair (31:33), with the NFL’s hyper-detailed nature clashing with China’s events culture (33:10), reminiscent of the NHL’s exhibition fiasco in Shanghai when hockey players couldn’t see through the fog on the ice (34:00). In fact, players from all sports have had issues when traveling abroad for pre-season, even though the fans love it (36:00). Onto baseball and some theories on why the sport hasn’t made it big in China (38:05). Jenne says that watching sports is a taste of home that helps keep him grounded (42:20) and explains why being a Red Sox fan has helped him understand China better (45:09). Why relegation needs to happen in North American sports (48:06) and which US sport is most likely to adopt the concept (48:42). Finally, Jenne describes the evolution of the typical Chinese sports fan he’s encountered over the decades (50:06), reveals what’s exciting him these days (53:40), and muses on what Chinese sports fans must think when they see full stands in Europe and North America (54:50).

China’s Eileen Gu takes up Olympic Ambassadorial role — for the U.S.

The China Project — Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:41:30 +0000

Eileen Gu, the top-rated story from the 2022 Olympics, is back in the headlines once again (1:00). She just announced she will be an ambassador for Salt Lake City’s Olympic bid. Is she trying to have her cake and eat it too (2:15)? Mark says she’s overcompensating for her switch from the U.S. to China, but what will the Chinese reaction be (4:15)? Could she even switch back to compete for the US in 2026 (4:55)? With athletes like skater Nathan Chen — a Salt Lake City native — or skier Mikael Shiffrin, what will Eileen Gu do for the bid that others can’t? (7:44) How much do Americans care at this point? Old news or still a story (9:57)? It’s clear she needs to come on the China Sports Insider Podcast (11:24)! Here’s what Mark would ask her if he just had one question (12:10). At his customary pre-NBA finals press conference, Commissioner Adam Silver talked a lot about China (14:10). Silver was, again, trying to occupy something of a middle ground — and, so far, he seems to be doing OK (15:36). Silver says the NBA gets unfairly singled out. Mark tends to agree: if we give up on sports exchanges, then we might as well give up on diplomacy entirely (17:18). Our guest this week, Chris Fenton, sits at the intersection of sports, celebrity and China’s global dealings (19:50). Hollywood seems to be turning the corner with regards to China — but where are we with sports (21:06)? Discussion of the WTA taking a stance on the Peng Shuai affair and being rewarded by sponsorship dollars as a result (26:06). But it’s hard to see what a resolution between China and the WTA looks like. When it comes to money, will people always be swayed (28:38)? The WTA, and more recently, the Top Gun movie, shows that you can be profitable while bypassing the China market. Will the men’s tour, the ATP, become the first frog to jump into the boiling water (31:52)? We end with a discussion about ESPN’s recent articles about China and NBA owners — and what this means for the future (35:35).

Patrick McEnroe on China’s new star, Peng Shuai, and the Tour’s return to China

The China Project — Sat, 04 Jun 2022 15:52:50 +0000

China’s Zheng Qinwen makes a run at the French Open — beating Simona Halep and Alize Cornet, then becoming the first player in more than a month to take a set off Iga Swiatek. (2:20) Zheng has been getting lots of attention in China, with people posting about her online and bringing tennis back into the spotlight (6:00). Elsewhere, there’s a new youth football league in China — but will it make a difference (6:55)? China’s goalkeeping coach says the men’s national team has improved by 33% in recent months. That’s, er, debatable (8:00). How does the formation of a youth league in China compare to development in other countries and why has it taken so long (9:36)? Tennis great Patrick McEnroe joins the show from New York, after returning from Roland Garros (11:40). He gives his thoughts on Zheng’s run to the last 16 in Paris (12:25). Is it too early to call her the next Li Na (13:42)? Moving outside of China, coupled with her personality, can help her prepare for the big time (15:05). Are players and coaches talking about Chinese tennis today? How much are the next crop of youngsters on the radar (16:57)? McEnroe explains how Zheng’s Spanish coach and her setup will bring a mental aspect to her athleticism that will help her a lot (19:23). There are development parallels with Li Na, but also in how their games have both been rooted in the Chinese system and have embraced the global system, too (21:35). Training for tennis is unique – you need to compete against players better than you, so you need to travel to where the better players are (23:15). Is Peng Shuai still a topic with the players on tour (26:25)? Are the men’s and women’s tours — the ATP and the WTA — talking about this together? McEnroe spoke to WTA boss Steve Simon recently on his podcast to talk about China and says he thinks the WTA is looking for a solution, while the ATP could be back in China as soon as the borders re-open (29:49). McEnroe gives his thoughts on why there are no good Chinese male players, saying that the girls can train with boys to get better, but boys have to travel, adding that athleticism has become very important in the men’s game — it’s no longer enough to just be a good player (34:12). Finally, he shares his thoughts on the recent Casper Ruud and Holger Rune dispute at the net and tells some stories from his past — his own beef with Andre Agassi and a time when Andy Roddick had an issue with a young Novak Djokovic at the US Open (38:41).

Ultimate influencers: Frisbee sees boom thanks to Chinese KOLs

The China Project — Wed, 25 May 2022 15:10:09 +0000

On the show this week, Mark shares his experience on Patrick McEnroe’s podcast (1:02), plus watching live soccer for a change at a Taiwan Mulan Football League game — women’s pro soccer in Taiwan (1:41). Meanwhile, Tencent Sports has laid off 100 people given that there’s no original sporting content to produce these days (3:15), and Tencent’s big boss Pony Ma has been in the headlines for reposting a column critical of COVID zero (5:17). Chongqing’s soccer team pulls the plug after 27 years in existence, leaving the Chinese Super League one team short just days before the start of the season. Reports circulate that players are getting very edgy about payments, too (6:46). Forbes releases its annual list of the Top 50 highest earning athletes — but there’s one key omission with a Chinese connection (10:39)!

Two guests join Mark and Haig to discuss the rise of Ultimate Frisbee, a game that’s been played in China for more than two decades but has exploded in popularity recently thanks to influencers on Little Red Book (小红书 Xiǎohóngshū), China’s version of Instagram. Haig wrote about this in The China Project, a piece approved and edited by The China Project managing editor Anthony Tao. Anthony — a former captain of Beijing’s top ultimate team, Big Brother — and Zoey Tang, current co-captain of Big Brother, joins the discussion (14:03). Despite his love for the sport, why was Anthony wary about commissioning a piece about Ultimate in China (15:23)? The sport’s recent growth has been dramatic, but some in the sport have mixed feelings (17:35). Ultimate has even featured in commercial breaks during Tencent’s coverage of the NBA playoffs (18:28). Zoey explains when she first began noticing new players — and new media coverage (19:20). The photos circulating online are something else. The guests try to describe them, but they have to be seen to be believed (20:05). Zoey makes the point that the photos are too unrealistic, primarily because the make-up is too perfect – and that’s not going to work when you’re playing (21:51). So if the photos are the most important thing, do these Ultimate influencers even play the game (22:47)? Little Red Book, or Xiaohongshu, reached out to Zoey in their desire to promote the sport (24:37). But what is this app, and how did it identify frisbee as a new fashion trend (25:42)? Of all the things that could have exploded in China, why Ultimate (26:44)? It’s great to have new people take up the sport, but Anthony and Zoey explain why it can be unsafe to play with newbies (28:40). More so than many other sports, Ultimate has become a social activity and a way to meet people — with a number of “Ultimate couples” emerging (29:07). But the cost of playing is rising, because of new things like coaching and photography (30:50). There’s a hashtag online for Ultimate, which translates as “Frisbee brings all the joy” — it’s a very positive slogan and has helped to bring even more exposure (34:40). What is it like coaching and training these new players? For some women, Zoey says, this is the first time they’ve ever played a sport (36:31). Just how big can Ultimate become in China (39:05)? Anthony outlines a little of the sport’s history in China (40:10) and explains why the infrastructure in the U.S. is more advanced than that in China (42:13). Finally, there have been rumblings of Ultimate becoming an exhibition sport at the Olympics, which could boost its popularity further in China (44:00), but the organizational aspects in China could well become political — as has been seen in other sports here — which could, conversely, hinder the sport’s growth.

China’s F1 star Zhou Guanyu on Kobe, Netflix, and answering his critics

The China Project — Wed, 18 May 2022 16:12:34 +0000

With a special guest on the show this week, we rank where F1 rookie Zhou Guanyu sits in China’s sporting landscape today (0:52). The biggest sports story in China is still COVID, with China now stripped of its hosting rights for the 2023 Asian Cup. Given the news, what are chances of China ever hosting a World Cup (2:17)? A discussion on who takes the blame — or the credit — for the early Asian Cup cancellation decision (5:47). Is this a sign we’ll be living with Zero-COVID in China for at least another year (7:22)? And where does that leave the CSL this season (9:00)? In tennis news, the organizer of the Hong Kong Open says he’s hopeful the tournament can return in 2023 — but it all depends on two small things, COVID and Peng Shuai (9:50). Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff says he’d like to see three races in China — hardly the right time to be calling for that (11:51)! Exploring the options for a new circuit from Beijing and Hainan to Yunnan and Tibet (14:46). F1 driver Zhou Guanyu joins us from Barcelona, where he’s preparing for the Spanish Grand Prix (15:26). He’s started strongly and shares his goals for the rest of the season (17:09). F1 has been a whirlwind so far: Has anything surprised him (18:16)? Next, Zhou talks about his relationship with teammate Valtteri Bottas and the Alfa Romeo team (19:22), and reveals what he’s made of the reaction to his success from fans back at home (20:37). Not everyone was supportive of the Chinese driver joining the grid: Zhou said he was surprised by that, but hits back at his critics (21:48). The Shanghai native then speaks of his excitement about the prospect of racing at his hometown track (23:40), and shares his memories of previous Chinese Grands Prix in Shanghai (25:10). The Netflix series Drive to Survive has transformed F1’s popularity in the U.S. and Zhou gives his take on that and the upcoming season (26:40). Back at home, what are the challenges and opportunities for developing motorsport in China and what can he personally do to drive that forward (27:42)? Perhaps surprisingly, Zhou names Kobe Bryant as his biggest inspiration and explains why he’s such a hero (29:06). Finally, he offers some advice for the next generation of Chinese drivers (30:47) and shares what he rates as his top strength as a driver (32:16).

What’s next for China’s sports industry amid Asian Games cancellation?

The China Project — Thu, 12 May 2022 18:01:17 +0000

Mark escapes Beijing, leaving the ghost town that PEK airport has become (0:18), while the city of Beijing slips into a lockdown in all but name (2:03). China’s COVID policy has devastated the growth of sports at a time when it should be booming (3:00). The Asian Games are postponed – they simply don’t have the same political significance of the Olympics (4:45). Could they, or the twice-postponed World University Games, realistically be held next year, given the current restrictions (7:30)? Meanwhile, there’s some good news about China’s hockey teams: both the men’s and women’s teams have won promotion in their groups at the World Championships, keeping the majority of the “heritage players” who featured at the Olympics (9:13). Our guest this week is Zhang Ting, a sports industry expert who spent a decade with sports recruitment firm SRi. (11:41) Now with UFC in Shanghai overseeing business development and sponsorship, Zhang discusses how China’s sports industry can emerge from COVID-19. Zero-COVID has meant incredible challenges domestically, but the fitness industry has provided something of a silver lining (12:50). There’s been a growth in Chinese fitness brands gaining in popularity, in parallel to the growth of the actual industry (15:00). Zhang then talks about the rise of Chinese sportswear brands, how they’ve been successful, their different strategies, and why some are a real threat to Adidas and others (16:30). But she argues that only the Chinese brands with solid products and sound brand strategies will survive, and not because they have the cheapest products (18:15). Does the rise of new, niche sports present an opportunity for up-and-coming brands (19:23)? What about the positives for the sports industry due to the pandemic — such as the development of the domestic skiing industry — or are they outweighed by the negatives (21:45)? Next, Zhang discusses her current role with the UFC and how she approaches sponsorship acquisition and monetizing the brand (25:00). She shares some of the challenges she’s faced in her role and explains how the UFC’s brand and the brands of individual fighters can be two very different things (26:03). Dealing with sponsors’ concerns can be a challenge, such as convincing them that the UFC is safe (29:37). She reveals the success she’s had with Chinese brands going global (31:36), and outlines what it takes to be a success in the sports industry (33:13). Finally, Zhang discusses some challenges specific to women in the sports industry in China, as well as some opportunities (36:20). Make sure to tune in next week for a very special guest (42:53)!

From Shanghai to the NFL: Rams rookie eager to make the grade

The China Project — Fri, 06 May 2022 15:33:17 +0000

With Mark and Haig recording their last face-to-face show before some summer travel (0:36), news is coming through that the World University Games in Chengdu will be postponed for a second time (2:03) [UPDATE: Mark’s sources were right, as both those Games and the Asian Games in Hangzhou have now both been postponed]. The decision was mostly because of COVID — what isn’t these days? — but Russia was stripped of its 2023 hosting rights, so there’s a gap on the calendar (3:43). Meanwhile, far fewer weightlifters will perform at the 2024 Paris Olympics, meaning a big hit to China’s gold medal hopes (6:00). Plus, Eileen Gu heads back to the U.S. after three months in China, with the most polarizing athlete in the U.S.-China sphere prompting yet more praise and criticism in equal measures (8:45). Our guest on the show spent the first decade of his life in Shanghai; this week, Cameron Dicker signed with the world champions LA Rams in the NFL. Dicker the Kicker, as he’s known, joins us from Dallas, where he’s going through some offseason training reps (14:26). Dicker explains how his family ended up in China (14:53), shares some stories from his Chinese experience (15:25), and recalls some not-so-fond memories playing football in China (15:55). After moving to the U.S. for the first time, age 11, did he feel like he was starting too late or he was still young enough to adapt (17:17)? Dicker explains how he transformed from being a soccer player to a kicker and punter for the University of Texas (18:31), but at what point did he first realize he had a shot at making an NFL roster (22:00)? Perhaps surprisingly, his China experience came up repeatedly during his NFL draft interviews (22:46), and Dicker explains how his time abroad has helped him become a better athlete (24:13). Kickers don’t often get drafted, but the newly-signed Dicker says he’s using that snub as motivation for the future (25:50). He explains how he’s getting ready for his first training camp with the Rams (26:40), lays out his expectations for his rookie year (28:50), reveals whether he thinks he has a better shot in the league as a kicker or as a punter (29:38), and learns for the first time that the Rams have been designated as “China’s team”, prompting dreams of a return trip to Shanghai one day (30:24).

Cameron Wilson ups the ante with Shanghai lockdown rant

The China Project — Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:40:17 +0000

It’s a strange time in Beijing right now, with mandatory testing and food flying off the shelves at supermarkets. Sports take a back seat, as Mark and Haig brace for a possible lockdown (0:52). Will the Asian Games in Hangzhou — scheduled for September this year — be postponed (6:02)? What kind of spectacle could we expect – bubble or not (8:21)? Haig talks about Shannon Bufton, a competitive cyclist turned Beijing bike maker and route planner (9:20). We catch up again with Cameron Wilson, who — one month later — is still in lockdown (15:00). He shares his lows of the past month, plus the occasional high (17:53), but at least the food situation has improved with the arrival of an army of delivery drivers (19:24). China’s case-counting headscratcher — and the new definition of cases “in society” — has once again muddied the situation (20:02). It’s a little like Lord of the Flies in Cammy’s compound, with four recent cases, despite weeks of being locked at home (21:26). Cammy hits his stride here, arguing that this outbreak was entirely predictable, and asks why on earth more people haven’t been vaccinated (23:00). He’s been in Shanghai for more than 16 years: Has he reached his limit (24:58)? In a seamless transition to football, former Manchester United and Belgium player Marouane Fellaini has returned to China ahead of the start of the CSL season (27:43), which will expand from 16 to 18 teams this year, despite the widespread financial insecurity (29:07). Could a small Shandong city host this year’s league in a bubble (29:28)? And is the 2023 Asian Cup, set for China next June, in doubt (31:12)? When is — or should be — the cutoff date for making a decision on whether or not to hold it here (32:42)? Finally, Cameron leaves us with a story about banging pots and yelling out of the window (34:00).

Greg Squires on Olympic disappointment and epic road trips

The China Project — Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:18:50 +0000

On this episode, feedback from last week’s interview with Rudi Ying (0:50), ESPN’s detailed look at Nets owner Joe Tsai (1:34), the NBA’s (very) rocky road back to televised games in China (2:53), why — perhaps — the Clippers were shown on China’s national broadcaster first (4:38), why the Sixers and Celtics drew longer bans than the rest (6:00), an absence of new material in the ESPN article (6:52), and Lebron James raging at other players about then-Rockets GM Daryl Morey (8:23).

Our guest this week is Greg Squires, a “heritage” ice hockey player — i.e. a North American of Chinese descent —who started the season with China’s Kunlun Red Star (KRS) but is now back in the U.S. (9:46). Squires explains how he first got scouted by KRS (11:14), after wondering how the team even knew about his Chinese roots (12:00). He was recalled to the side in 2021 with the promise of an Olympic spot (13:48) but ended up being cut alongside four other players (14:31). Squires offers his opinions on the best mix of homegrown and heritage players for China and reveals whether the local players were ready to play pro hockey (16:03). He says political priorities were more important than performance (19:09) and describes the divisions between the heritage and local players (21:03). Chinese hockey authorities, he says, tried to stop players on the men’s team from discussing their contract situations with those on the women’s team (23:34), adding that there was a sense of relief by the time his KRS contract was terminated (26:09). Squires also reveals what was it like to watch his former teammates play at the Olympics (27:20), scrapes the barrels in his search for positives about the direction of the game in China (27:54), and laments the fact that KRS failed to do any marketing or fan outreach in China (29:30). He offers his thoughts on why the women’s team has seen more success than the men’s (31:57), shares some of the wildest things that happened with the team on the road (35:30), including one story involving legendary coach Mike Keenan (37:24), gives an update on the rest of his season in Sweden and his future plans (38:54), and reveals one thing he would love to change about Chinese hockey (40:27).

Olympian Rudi Ying blows the lid off China’s hockey program

The China Project — Wed, 13 Apr 2022 16:51:50 +0000

In a round-up of the week’s news, F1’s Chinese rookie Zhou Guanyu narrowly missed out on the points — again — while there was a naming clarification from his team (3:03). The Chinese women’s ice hockey team has been lighting it up at the World Championships in Poland (4:48), with former Kunlun standout Melanie Jue — who features prominently in Mark’s book “Sporting Superpower” — back in the fold as an assistant coach (6:01). Meanwhile, Eileen Gu is still hanging out in Beijing, and posed with fans at Home Plate BBQ in Sanlitun this week (7:00). Our guest this week is Chinese Olympic ice hockey player Rudi Ying, who first connected with Mark after he wrote this piece last year on the dismal state of the men’s team (8:45). Ying explains why he’s not headed to the men’s World Championships later this month (10:16), which will offer him some time off for the first time in a long, long while (11:31). Recalling the lead-up to the Olympics, Ying describes the general uncertainty in the camp and how everything felt like a “last-minute emergency situation” — despite the five-year planning period (13:16). Joining the KHL wasn’t necessarily a good step for Chinese hockey (14:51), says Ying, who first hooked up with Kunlun Red Star (KRS) in 2016 after playing junior hockey in Canada (15:54). Playing 3-4 minutes a night as a teenager in the KHL was not ideal for his development, he says, and he admitted to feeling “terrified” every time he stepped on the ice (17:14). Years later as the Olympics approached, rifts formed at KRS between native Chinese players and the “heritage players” — North American players of Chinese descent — with unequal treatment for the two groups (19:43). Ying himself had something of an identity crisis, stuck somewhere between the two sides (21:27). Dealing with mandates from Chinese hockey authorities was like “Halloween night and the national team wore a KHL costume” (23:31). One particular low point was learning that a two-month camp in spring 2020 was going to last indefinitely, something which took a mental toll (24:20). The choice for players was to stay in camp — or leave and give up their Olympic dream. Two of the three captains chose to leave (26:21). Now 23, Ying says he’s considering his options — one of which might be leaving the game altogether (27:52). Mark and Haig look for positives, but Ying is pessimistic about Chinese hockey. Things, he says, are not going in the right direction (31:20). He recalls his emotions when news originally broke that NHL players would be going to the Olympics — with Canada and the U.S. drawn in China’s group (33:40). He also speaks openly about how committed the heritage players were — or not — to the Chinese program (35:08). In contrast to certain others, Ying says goalie Jeremy Smith earned the respect of all the Chinese players (40:54), before describing his own highlight at the Olympics (41:55). Finally, he explains what needs to be done to improve the hockey system in China (43:00), discusses how to improve the pipeline of players (44:18), recalls growing up with Song Andong, who became the first China-born player to be drafted in the NHL (45:42), and reveals his future ambitions to be a film director — inspired, in part, by his father, who’s famous for bringing sitcoms to China (47:43).

Pandemic Penalties: Cameron Wilson talks COVID and soccer from Shanghai

The China Project — Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:09:18 +0000

Chinese F1 driver Zhou Guanyu just missed out on another points finish (1:33), this time in Saudi Arabia, with the race going ahead despite a missile attack within range of the track. Mark and Haig share a few harrowing moments of their own (2:54). Mark tells the story of how he first met Chinese football expert Cameron Wilson (7:14), who joins for this week’s show from Shanghai, where he’s under lockdown (9:33). Wilson describes the mood in the city (11:35), and offers some thoughts on whether we should be skeptical of the COVID numbers coming out of Shanghai (13:13). Turning to football, is another failed World Cup campaign another low point for Chinese football (16:46)? Why is so little progress made year after year (18:00)? Are there any reason for optimism (20:00)? As Haig’s Canada qualifies for the first time in 36 years, Wilson draws some parallels between the two countries (23:00). One main issue is the lack of a footballing pyramid system in China, with few outlets for fans and players outside of the CSL (25:40). Wilson talks about how the perception of Chinese football overseas typically splits into two (29:40), how power dynamics in professional squads prioritize seniority over talent (31:15), and discusses whether match-fixing is still an issue in Chinese football, highlighting one example from recent memory (33:50). Finally, Wilson explains why he thinks some of his translated pieces on Chinese football have gained traction among Chinese football fans (38:52).

Zhou Guanyu debut revives 2022 Shanghai F1 hopes

The China Project — Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:12:59 +0000

On the show this week, Mark and Haig discuss Chinese motorsports driver Zhou Guanyu’s stunning F1 debut and the huge number of people in China who have been following him (2:13). Zhou’s likability will endear him to audiences both in China and abroad (2:56), but international commentators have had a hard time understanding that, in China, the family name comes first — something Zhou himself has requested (3:44). Elsewhere, there’s been a shake-up among the KRS Vanke Ray women’s ice hockey team in Russia, with several ins and out, plus an incredible winning streak despite a decimated team (5:04). Next, we’re joined by Davide De Gobbi, an Italian who’s been a central figure in the world of Chinese motorsports for 15 years. What did he make of Zhou Guanyu’s debut F1 race (8:21)? And when did Zhou first come onto his radar (9:25)? Davide discusses how far Zhou can go and why he thinks the Shanghai native has the potential to be a top driver (11:15). Zhou Guanyu signed with Alfa Romeo last year Iis that a good fit (15:15)? Lots of critics said Zhou bought his seat on the F1 grid — but that’s not really true (16:07). De Gobbi talks about the impact Zhou Guanyu’s success could have on motorsports in China, despite the country still missing a base of young drivers (18:50), before making a strong case for the Shanghai Grand Prix returning to the F1 calendar as soon as this year, given the removal of the Russian race (22:14). F1 execs have previously explored the possibility of a second GP in China — where might it be held and when (24:56)? De Gobbi discusses China’s current position on the motorsports development curve (27:28), explains why it might be a while before the next top driver comes along (32:10), describes how China’s esports culture could help discover a new generation of drivers (34:00), and tells us why he’s still optimistic about the future of motorsports in China, despite the challenges of the past few years (36:15).

The real reason China dominated at the Paralympics

The China Project — Wed, 16 Mar 2022 17:20:32 +0000

On the show this week, “Beardwatch” is back with a heartfelt apology from Mark to Haig (0:26). What can China take away from its dominance at the Paralympic Games (2:52)? Various factors contributed to this, including a fine performance from the Chinese team (3:35) and the absence of Russian and Belarusian competitors (4:15). But there’s more: top American Paralympian Oksana Masters implied a Chinese competitor was not “honest,” and we explain why (5:10), accusations of “classification doping” (6:35), and the surprise factor of the Chinese athletes, many of whom had not competed internationally prior to these Games (9:46). Next, the wife of Viktor Ahn — a South Korean-born Russian short-track speed skater and coach of the Chinese team — got into trouble after her cosmetics company listed Taiwan as a country. Cue angry netizens in China (story on The China Project here) (11:10). These reactions are just so tiresome, but they’re not going away (12:00). Parallels between Hollywood movies and professional sports in China: the prospect of earning lots of money versus dealing with a very touchy superpower — is it worth it (14:05)? Then we talk about a piece by Stephen Wade of the Associated Press about the outdated notion of political neutrality in sports in which he calls out the hypocrisy of the stated goal of separating sports and politics (16:58). The IOC and their sponsors say they like to focus on the athletes, not the countries, but if you take away the nationalist elements — such as the flags — then the Olympics as a concept are finished (18:48). A nine-year-old statement by IOC President Thomas Bach breaks Haig’s head (20:30), and will a Cold War mentality bring back real, as opposed to diplomatic, boycotts (22:20)?

China censors Paralympic president, and WTA rebounds from China suspension

The China Project — Wed, 09 Mar 2022 16:03:09 +0000

On the show this week, International Paralympic Committee (IPC) president Andrew Parsons delivered a fiery anti-war message at the Paralympics opening ceremony — but it was censored in China. He also flubbed a line, for which the IPC has apologized, yet China has not even acknowledged its own censorship (1:40). International sporting bodies such as the IOC and FIFA have been awarding events to countries that create headaches. Is this era coming to an end (4:26)? The IPC has historically stood apart from the IOC, often taking a stronger stance on issues (5:10), but one difference at these two Games is that the Paralympics has fewer foreign journalists in the bubble asking the difficult questions (7:15). Was the IPC’s decision to send Russian and Belarusian athletes home the right one? A Russian legal appeal could have resulted in a very messy situation (8:08). Do these and other sporting sanctions actually have any impact on Putin and the war (10:45)? The absence of Russian and Belarusian athletes has severely affected the medal standings, to China’s great advantage (12:27), so does that impact the legitimacy of the results (14:45)? The weather in the mountains is still treacherous, with one skier blown off course by high winds, sustaining serious injuries and still only just missing out on a medal (15:30). Mark highlights the inspirational comments of Swedish athlete Ebba Aarsjoe (16:15), as well as the heartwarming back story of pro-basketball-player-turned-Paralympic-legend Li Duan, who was the final torchbearer at the opening ceremony (18:12). The Women’s Tennis Association (WTA) announced a new title sponsor this week, further evidence that they could be moving on from China. What does that mean for other sports leagues — especially the men’s tour, the ATP (20:22)? Guess who won the first tournament under new sponsor Hologic, who specifically referenced the WTA’s Peng Shuai stance as a catalyst for their partnership? China’s Zhang Shuai — who beat a Ukrainian opponent to win her third WTA title (23:58). Finally, swimmer Sun Yang’s second appeal of a doping ban at a court in Switzerland was denied. Could this spell the end of his storied career (25:28)?

Russia Front and Center as Paralympics Begin

The China Project — Wed, 02 Mar 2022 21:43:20 +0000

On the show this week, Mark and Haig discuss whether Russian and Belorussian athletes should be allowed to compete in the Paralympics (0:36)? How will athletes from other nations be affected and will they protest about competing with Russian athletes (3:36)?

Online streaming platform Tencent made some desperate edits when a fan waving a Ukrainian flag popped up on their stream of an NBA game (4:11). In ice hockey, two of the KHL’s five international teams have pulled out — what does this mean for Kunlun Red Star, China’s entry in the Russian league (6:30)? It’s even more complicated for the KRS women, whose players hail from seven countries (8:12). Throughout it all, China is trying to sit on the fence, but that’s increasingly no longer an option (9:41). And athletes and coaches are getting drawn into the fray, as Thomas Tuchel — manager at Roman Abramovich’s Chelsea — knows only too well (11:04). China has close links with both the IOC and Russia, so China, too, is in a tough spot when the IOC sanctions Russia and Putin (12:18).

In men’s tennis, the ATP has dropped its Moscow tournament and announced four Chinese tournaments on its 2022 calendar — but what are the chances those tournaments actually take place (13:23)? Finally, double Olympic champion speed skater Nils van der Poel has donated one of his medals to make a political statement, further straining China-Sweden relations (15:40).

Counting down the top Olympic storylines

The China Project — Wed, 23 Feb 2022 16:40:36 +0000

In a special Olympics wrap episode, we count down all the top storylines from the Beijing 2022 Olympic Winter Games, starting with why an Olympic hangover is less like to happen now compared with 2008 (1:21). Remember the snowfall, which added to the atmosphere (2:26)? In defense of Beijing’s high caliber venues and infrastructure (3:10). The Kamila Valieva doping scandal, and her supervillain coach (4:00). Mikaela Shiffrin and a wider discussion of why disappointment is just as important as success (7:00). Politics reared its head with an Uyghur torchbearer and Peng Shuai’s latest appearance (8:52). Norway’s secret to sustained success at the Winter Games (10:19). Celebrating Chinese pairs figure skating team of Sui Wenjing and Han Cong (12:13), plus China’s most successful Olympics — but would the country rather win more medals and fewer golds (13:27)? Chinese hockey — the men, the women, and the nicknames (15:12). Age is not a barrier, as proved by American Lindsey Jacobellis and China’s Xu Mengtao (17:03). The lack of political protests at these Games (18:23). Su Yiming’s brilliance and his brilliant future (20:26). Olympics ratings — down in the US, but big in China — can be tough to interpret given unmonitored streaming data (21:15). No NHL players, no tickets, no atmosphere (23:13). The zero-Covid Games and how the closed-loop worked exactly as planned (25:48). Eileen Gu was Mark’s top story of the Games (26:49). And don’t forget the Paralympics are around the corner: here’s why they are worth a watch (30:49).

Mumbling anthems and frozen genitals

The China Project — Sun, 20 Feb 2022 17:14:26 +0000

China wins gold #9 with a figure skating pairs win — four years after heartbreak (2:18). Eileen Gu has been living a privileged existence inside the bubble (3:10), but faced some criticism for mumbling through the Chinese national anthem (4:32). China almost got to the end of these Olympics without a political own goal — but not quite. (5:19) It got so cold up in Chongli that one athlete suffered from frozen genitals. (7:53) Chinese sprinter like Su Bingtian and his relay teammates are set to get an Olympic medal — nine months after Tokyo ended. (10:09) And China names its flagbearers for the closing ceremony (as predicted by Mark!) (11:24). Team China ice hockey goalie Kim Newell joins us from her hometown of Vancouver, where she’s coming down from the high of Beijing (12:40). She talks about the competitiveness of China’s group at the Olympics (13:52), explains what went right, what went wrong, and why it was so intense. (15:19) Next, she shares her highest high — coming back from a broken ankle in November and getting a win (17:07), and details the lowest low — when the team couldn’t find a way to get through Sweden (19:22). Princeton grad Newell learned Chinese specifically to have a conversation with her grandfather and connect with her heritage (21:10), and she talks about her eye-opening month-long trip to China as a student (24:39), and how she realized her aim of connecting with her grandfather before he passed away (25:55). Next, she gives her take on the “translator incident” when she was banned from answering questions in English, but used it as a moment to get increased attention for women’s hockey in China (27:22). Newell says she’s hoping to get back to China as soon as possible to further interest in the game (32:19), and discusses what’s going to happen with Kunlun Red Star next season (34:19). Finally, she gives her thoughts on whether China’s strategy of bringing in naturalized and heritage players has been successful (35:41), and reveals whether she sees coaching in her future (40:27).

Russian doping scandal — plus Xu, Su, and Gu

The China Project — Wed, 16 Feb 2022 16:40:34 +0000

How much of a shadow has the Russian doping scandal cast over these Games? (1:16) Could Beijing organizers actually welcome the Kamila Valieva issue because it takes attention off other controversial issues? (2:45) China had three stars this week: Xu, Su, and Gu. We start with how Xu Mengtao’s story arguably resonates the most — plus the touching moment she shared with an American rival (6:11). Meanwhile, Eileen Gu is still dominating headlines, but the narrative within China appears to be shifting (8:48). 17-year-old snowboarder Su Yiming has talent and style in spades and has come out of virtually nowhere to become one of the stars of these Games — but will he be allowed to retain his personality as his star continues to shine? (12:22) And the Chinese men’s hockey team’s odyssey ends on a high note of sorts. We ask what’s next for the team and the country (16:07). Our guest this week is Simon Gleave, head of sports analysis at Nielsen Gracenote and the brains behind the world’s leading Olympic medal predictor model (18:21). He explains how the model works and what happens when there’s missing information (22:43). What trends does he see with regard to China in the Olympics? (25:00) And how did the model fare when it came to China’s breakout skeleton athletes? (28:16) Gleave also explains what other data he’s looking at (29:31), reveals which event is the easiest to predict (33:14), and discusses whether or not data models ever support the “hot hand theory” widely touted throughout the sports world (33:49).

Dropped torch bearer, English ban, skeleton gains, and bubble hockey

The China Project — Sun, 13 Feb 2022 18:19:30 +0000

An update on the Uyghur athlete chosen as one of the two final torchbearers (2:39). The Chinese men’s hockey team had their first test — and it was a blowout 8-0 loss to the U.S. team (4:30), but they bounced back well with a creditable 3-2 defeat to reigning silver medalists Germany (8:39). Things got strange at a press conference after the Chinese women’s hockey team played Japan, when goalie Kim Newell was prevented from speaking English (10:03), and a shoutout to former China Sports Insider Podcast guest Rachel Llanes, whose father passed away just days before she scored the winning goal against Denmark (12:04). Plus, China’s gamble in skeleton has paid off with a bronze medal in the men’s event — how did they do it? (14:06) Then, Beijing resident Liam Mather joins us on the show to talk about his work on the Olympic TV hockey production inside the bubble (19:24). As first mentioned by the China Sports Insider Podcast, he had a dramatic reunion with his father after 2.5 years apart — a story that’s since been picked up by both western and Chinese media (20:52). Liam tells us how the family has reacted (22:10), describes his job as a TV “spotter” (23:19), explains why the Canadian women’s team has been giving him daggers across the ice (25:03), relays his trip up to Chongli and reveals how close spectators can get to the athletes (26:16), plus, he gives us his thoughts on women’s hockey at the Olympics from his up-close perspective (28:07) and his assessment of both the Chinese men’s and women’s hockey teams at the Games (31:26).

A tricky situation for Eileen Gu

The China Project — Wed, 09 Feb 2022 22:10:11 +0000

At the Olympics, it’s all Eileen Gu, all the time (1:06), but she’s not just talking the talk, now she’s walking the walk with her first Olympic gold medal (2:11). The citizenship question leaves Gu in a tricky situation — one she’s refusing to clarify (4:14), and she’s now positioned at the center of the U.S.-China rivalry(6:13). Gu went on the offensive in her post-event press conference (6:30), but can she still be a bridge between the two superpowers — or is that unrealistic in today’s polarized world? (8:30) As if there wasn’t enough drama, Peng Shuai was trotted in to watch Gu perform (11:31). We also look at the Chinese reaction to Eileen Gu, plus a weird story out of Guangdong (12:48). Meanwhile, 17-year-old Su Yiming wins silver in slopestyle — but the global snowboarding community comes to his defense (13:46), with the TV issues reportedly at the root of this particular controversy (16:00). Then we get into short track, where all the decisions are going China’s way — unlike four years ago (18:00). Some athletes are worried about the extreme cold in Zhangjiakou (21:07), a passionate defense of the Shougang Big Air venue, which has been pilloried in the media (22:16), and the Chinese women’s hockey team is out of the Olympics despite a good showing (25:26). Finally, here’s why men’s skeleton is something to keep an eye on (25:52) and some good news for Chinese soccer as the women’s team wins the AFC Women’s Asian Cup in dramatic fashion (29:09).

Opening Ceremony analysis and a view from inside the Bubble

The China Project — Sun, 06 Feb 2022 16:16:30 +0000

Before the opening ceremony, Mark predicted that a young Uyghur athlete would be among the final torchbearers. We discuss what happened and why it's so significant to China (1:30). Remembering Li Ning's ambush marketing and comparing the surprises of 2008 vs 2022 (6:09); elsewhere, the Canadian moguls team is sponsored by Anta (7:34); China's mixed relay short track speed skating team wins gold; after the U.S. squad was disqualified from the semis — which gifted China a birth in the final (8:06); how a gold medal can change the life of a Chinese athlete (9:18); and armchair short track speed skating experts (10:20). Plus, some Olympic items to keep an eye on this week (12:11), why Mark's feeling good about his decision not to enter the bubble (12:57), and China's new curling star becomes an internet darling (14:15). Joining us on the show is figure skater Tina Garabedian, the flag bearer for the Armenian delegation (16:08). She describes exactly what it was like walking out into the Bird's Nest stadium (16:24), takes us behind the scenes for the build-up to the big day (16:58), explains just how segregated the athletes were in the staging area (18:10), COVID stresses prior to coming to Beijing and some tough packing choices (18:52), the lack of relaxation inside the bubble (20:14), and her upcoming week (21:55). Next, Tina reveals her friends and rivals on tour (22:48), outlines the start of her Olympic journey as a child in Montreal (23:20), talks about how different schooling systems impacted her career (25:03), how famous she is in Armenia (26:23), the impact of travel restrictions on her competition schedule (26:54), how her parents have been able to be part of the Armenian delegation — but not her husband (27:52) and how the Chinese Olympic volunteers have made her stay extra special (28:46).

On the eve of the Beijing Olympics, conspiracy theories, anthems, and more Eileen Gu

The China Project — Wed, 02 Feb 2022 14:56:35 +0000

Not long now until the Olympic cauldron is lit, and already there is no end of stories to talk about. It’s Chinese New Year so most people would be forgiven for not turning their attention to the Olympics, but the excitement is building (0:27). Meanwhile, in the closed loop, athletes and officials continue to test positive on arrival and from daily testing. At this point, no outbreaks inside the closed loop. So far so good? (4:00) China’s naturalized ice hockey players get Chinese names (5:52). Mark tells an incredible reunification story from inside the closed loop about a dad and son (8:14). Mark was on NBC’s Today Show to talk about Eileen Gu. With no NHL players, is she the star that these Olympics need? (10:20). The China Daily publishes a batsh*t crazy conspiracy theory alleging that the U.S. Olympic Team wants to tarnish the Olympics… by tanking (15:28). Haig has second thoughts about going to Olympic events in Beijing (17:57). Good news everyone. Not one but two new Olympic anthems. (21:00). One non-Olympics story: Chinese men’s national soccer team loses to the only team with a worse record than theirs in World Cup qualifying. Better luck next cycle! (23:32)

Countdown to the Olympics, and why did China’s ski cross team part ways with their strength coach?

The China Project — Thu, 27 Jan 2022 15:20:47 +0000

On the show this week: with just eight days to go until the Olympic flame is lit, Mark and Haig talk hockey and Covid complications for athletes (2:18), a change in the testing systems that lowers the Covid-19 testing threshold (8:25), and an update on event invitations — Haig just may go to an event or two (11:57). Then: until recently Joop Wiersema was the strength and conditioning coach for China’s ski cross team. He was abruptly let go after he was diagnosed with Covid. Mark talks to him about what happened. (14:37). On the agenda: testing positive on arrival at Calgary airport and parting ways with the Chinese team (16:07), the differences coaching in China vs coaching in his native Holland (21:00), dealing with input from administrators who may not have the expertise to be giving advice (23:20), the surprising recruitment process for ski cross athletes (33:56), and Joop’s predictions for China’s winter sporting future (40:39). Mark’s new book is available for sale on Amazon now. You can follow us on Twitter. Mark is at https://twitter.com/DreyerChina and Haig is at https://twitter.com/haigbalian If you’re enjoying the show, do us a favor and rate and review us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

Beijing gold medal favorite Aleksander Aamodt Kilde

The China Project — Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:59:47 +0000

00:37 – Mark has a new book! 3:50 – Beijing organizers confirm there won’t be e public sale of tickets. So who’ll be invited? Is … Mark on one of these lists? 5:49 – What about outdoor skiing events? Is it a wasted opportunity to have no spectators at outdoor venues where spectators can space out? 7:45 – A batch of new cases in Beijing over the last week means that the level of concern has raised, but at this point, is there a reason to panic? Let’s check back next week. 9:57 – One of the Beijing cases is blamed on a package that came from Canada. We’re no doctors, but that … seems like a stretch. 11:50 Canadian researchers look under the hood of the compulsory My2022 app. They don’t love what they see. 13:42 – A year ago today, superstar Norwegian downhill skier Alexander Aamodt Kilde was in a hospital bed, recovering from a torn ACL. Now he’s back to his winning ways with five World Cup victories and a solid favorite for gold in Beijing. 14:57 – After his injury, did he ever feel like he wouldn’t get back to where he was? 16:00 – Like all World Cup skiers, Kilde has never competed in China. So how do you game plan for a course you’ve never experienced? 16:53 – What does Kilde know about the type of snow in Beijing, and how it will affect his performance during the Olympics? 18:11 – To cope with the unknown conditions, and far from the ski factories in Europe, Kilde’s team is traveling with an incredible number of skis. 20:37 – What’s on the schedule over the next two to three weeks before the Games begin? 21:15 – How much is the Omicron variant worrying Kilde in the lead-up to the Games? 22:26 – Is the mental aspect more important than ever in case there’s a need to isolate? 23:55 – With China’s push to get hundreds of millions of people into snow sports, does Kilde see himself as an ambassador for skiing? 24:44 – How aware is Kilde of China’s push to be a winter sports country? 26:17: – Is he aware of more Chinese entrants in downhill skiing? 27:28 – One of the stories of these Games may be Benjamin Alexander, who is competing for Jamaica after learning to ski just six years ago. Is this a good thing for the sport? 29:02 – To much of the world, Kilde is known as a world-class skier. But to American viewers on NBC, he’ll probably be known as “Mr. Mikaela Shiffrin.” How has life changed since he started dating the world’s most famous skier? 31:32 – One major outcome of being in a relationship with a high-profile skiing celebrity like Shiffrin is an increase in brand recognition. We ask Kilde his thoughts on their combined commercial potential. 33:54 – What do Kilde and Shiffrin talk about when they talk skiing?

The curious case of Eileen Gu, and stay away from Olympic car crashes!

The China Project — Wed, 12 Jan 2022 19:55:08 +0000

Freestyle skier Eileen Gu is poised to take the Beijing Olympics by storm, but a new story from The Wall Street Journal raises questions about her citizenship status. She now competes for China, but has she given up her U.S. passport as required under Chinese law? There’s lots for Mark and Haig to get into here: who decides someone’s nationality or citizenship? Does it matter, and to whom? And what could this mean for other athletes in China’s orbit? (1:32) Meanwhile, Gu has been outspoken on U.S. issues, so is it fair to criticize her for not speaking out on Chinese issues? (7:01) Elsewhere in the show, Dutch athletes are told to leave their electronics at home so they don’t get spied on — sage advice or over the top? (12:57) The Olympic bubble is now in operation, but it sounds like some might not be happy with the food choices on offer... (16:28) This week, Beijing warned its citizens to steer clear if they see an Olympic vehicle in a car crash — here’s why! (18:33) Finally, a UK court has ordered Chinese company PPTV to pay the Premier League more than $200 million, but what are the chances they pay up? (21:18)

Rachel Llanes spills all on life inside Team China’s camp

The China Project — Thu, 06 Jan 2022 15:14:09 +0000

With the Omicron variant rampant worldwide, calls to postpone the Olympics have been growing louder. We discuss why that’s simply not an option for China (1:04). The Olympic “closed-loop management system” went into operation this week. Here’s how it works (6:17). More bad news for tennis in China as streaming platform iQiyi drops all WTA and ATP tournaments (9:40), and CGTN releases its new Olympic anthem. It’s worth a watch/listen! (12:00) Our guest this week is Rachel Llanes, who doubles as a forward for the Chinese women’s ice hockey team and as their strength and conditioning coach. She explains how the team has just returned to China, after playing in the Russian Women’s Hockey League (13:56), how she’s been putting her teammates through their paces despite being stuck in quarantine (15:07), how she copes with the pressure to overtrain (17:19), and what the past season has been like for her (18:38). Next, she describes how a walking tour in Saint Petersburg went awry (19:27), how she first got involved with the Chinese team (20:57), the team’s stuttering progress after the loss of legendary coach Digit Murphy (22:41), how she didn’t know she’d be eligible to play for China until November last year (24:27), and what exactly happened to finalize China’s Olympic roster (25:08). Llanes also discusses the stringent testing and quarantine requirements she is currently undergoing (25:38) and reveals what the team is doing to prepare for their opponents at the Olympics (27:01), before giving her views on whether China can be a realistic medal threat (28:06).

2022 predictions, and sailing star Xu Lijia meets Peng Shuai

The China Project — Thu, 30 Dec 2021 15:08:28 +0000

First up, we look at the back-and-forth between China and the U.S. on visas for State Department personnel ahead of the Winter Olympics and discuss what’s really going on (1:47). Then we look ahead to 2022 with some bold predictions (emphasis on bold!). From the Olympics to F1 to basketball, 2022 will be sure to have many surprises in store, and we give our predictions, plus a couple of hopes, for the coming year in sport in China. (3:13) Our guest this week is Xú Lìjiā 徐莉佳, who goes by Lily in English and who won sailing gold at the 2012 London Olympics. Just last week she popped up in photos seen around the world with tennis player Péng Shuài 彭帅 (15:20). She spoke to us about her experience of being named the flagbearer for China at the 2012 Closing Ceremony (16:25), how winning Olympic gold changed her life (18:40), why she launched a sailing podcast (21:37), a typical training regime for sailors (22:36), how she got into sailing after being recruited from the swimming pool (25:20) and the system for identifying and developing talented athletes, plus the sacrifices that Chinese hopefuls have to make (30:11). More recently, she’s been busy learning how to drive an E Formula 1 car with Daniel Lu of the Porsche Driving Academy (33:45), and hanging out in Shanghai with Yao Ming and Peng Shuai. We asked Xu how that meeting happened (34:29), what they talked about and what Peng said to her (36:09). Finally, she talked about the Beijing Olympics and the role she might play (37:43), before Mark and Haig discussed the interview — and Xu’s meeting with Peng — in more detail (41:30).

The NHL pulls out of the Olympics, and Coach Grignard on tennis in China

The China Project — Thu, 23 Dec 2021 15:08:54 +0000

On the show this week, as the NHL forbids players from going to the Beijing Olympics (1:06), Mark and Haig discuss the impact on the Games (2:08), why Olympic hockey is important (3:38), who will replace the NHL players (4:41), and dig into the NHL’s decision — and its timing (5:45). Elsewhere, a look at how the NHL decision benefits the Chinese team (6:33), which has had some roster upheaval — and friction — in recent days (7:54). Mark also talks about his media tour — talking about Peng Shuai with NBC, WTA with Reuters (10:00), and women’s hockey — and tennis! — with CGTN (12:04). Plus, all the latest in the Peng Shuai Exhibition Tour, as she is paraded in Shanghai (12:52). Next, we talk to Olivier Grignard, a Belgian tennis coach who first came to China in 2011 to work alongside Li Na’s coach Carlos Rodriguez, and has seen a lot of change over the subsequent years (14:31). He’s currently working with Chinese tennis player Lu Jiajing (highest world ranking 162) — who also came into the studio! – and is running his own NextChamp program (15:50). He talks about the impact that Li Na has had on the sport in China (17:23), gives his verdict on China’s rising stars Wang Xinyu and Wang Xinyu (18:22), outlines the typical setup of China’s top players (20:14), and explains why the best juniors don’t always find success at the pro level (20:45). Next, Grignard compares Chinese players with their international counterparts (22:29), explains why the Chinese men haven’t had the same success as the women (23:42), reveals where the good players are coming from (25:54), and discusses the difference between state support for Chinese players versus those who hire their own team (27:02). Finally, Grignard discusses the impact on player development given the suspension of WTA tournaments in China and the fact that Chinese players can’t easily travel overseas (28:20), before revealing his plans for the future alongside Lu Jiajing (29:49).

Up close with NBA All-Star Stephon Marbury, plus NHL’s Olympic scare stories

The China Project — Thu, 16 Dec 2021 16:45:00 +0000

On the show this week, we expose the myth circulating in the NHL about China’s quarantine rules at the Olympics (1:18), explain what’s actually in the Olympic playbook and compare with the NHL’s current protocols (2:08), what happens if you keep testing positive (3:55), explore where the rumors are coming from (4:56), discuss the NHL’s reluctance to send players to Olympics (6:49) and explain why organizers have failed to adequately address these concerns (8:27). With COVID rampant in sports leagues around the world, some have predicted Beijing will postpone the Olympics to 2023. Mark vows to eat his hat if that happens (9:26). Finally, what’s new in Version 2 of the Olympic playbooks (12:58) and what is the latest on tickets for spectators (13:45)? Then, Mark and Haig sit down with two-time NBA All-Star and three-time CBA champion Stephon Marbury to find out what life has been like inside the CBA bubble (15:03), how he motivates his players as coach of the Beijing Royal Fighters (16:26), an update on the CBA season so far (17:15), how Marbury avoided the worst of the pandemic (18:27), why he wrote an email to NBA Commissioner Adam Silver (19:35), and what advice he would give to the NBA as the league suffers another COVID outbreak (20:14). Next, we find out what Marbury is most looking forward to at the Olympics (21:14), find out his advice for hesitant NHL players (22:42), ask how he deals with difficult questions from reporters (24:23), and see what he’s most excited about with the Beijing Olympics just 50 days away (25:39). We also discuss Marbury’s case for the NBA Hall of Fame (26:29), compare his NBA and CBA experiences (27:15), get the scoop on his recent spat with ESPN’s Stephen A. Smith (28:39), find out which foreign players in the CBA he’s closest to (30:58), get his advice on adapting to life in China (32:51), and find out what’s next for Stephon Marbury (35:02).

U.S. Olympic “boycott,” hockey showdown looming, and Chinese soccer with Tariq Panja and Nikki Wang

The China Project — Thu, 09 Dec 2021 16:00:07 +0000

On the show this week, a decision — finally — from the International Ice Hockey Federation: the Chinese men’s team will be playing in the Olympic tournament (00:56). But they’re facing the U.S. and Canada. Will the NHL All-Stars run up the score (2:13), and how are the Chinese players feeling about the prospect? Plus what’s going on with the Team China squad, which is currently playing in Russia for the Kunlun Red Star team? (4:58) Meanwhile, one NHL player has already pulled out from the Olympics over concerns about COVID-related restrictions. Will others follow? (6:21) Elsewhere, the White House announces that there won’t be an official U.S. delegation sent to the Olympics What impact, if any, will that have on the Games? (10:12) Chinese football is in dire straits right now. But how did we get here and what comes next? Haig and Mark talked to Nikki Wang, formerly with Deloitte China as head of sports business, where she advised the Chinese Super League; and to Tariq Panja from The New York Times (13:04). On the agenda: how Chinese soccer first got on the global football’s radar, with stories of astronomical sums of money (17:08), the 20-something Englishman who seemingly popped up in most Chinese football deals (20:18), signs of progress in Chinese soccer, and parallels to soccer around the world (24:37), global superstars playing with vastly inferior Chinese teammates (28:17), commercial ramifications of signing big names (30:42), the relationship Chinese clubs have with their fans (32:47), whether anyone is still paying attention outside of China (35:13), Tariq’s tales of coming to China during the boom years (37:56), Nikki’s views from the inside of Chinese football (42:20), and why Chinese football fans are among the most resilient in the world (47:19). See also: https://thechinaproject.com/2021/12/13/chinese-soccer-2021-a-postmortem/

WTA ups the ante, crunch time for hockey, and a chat with NFL China’s Stephanie Hsiao

The China Project — Thu, 02 Dec 2021 13:38:21 +0000

In this week’s episode, the WTA pulls out of China. What does this mean for the ATP, the IOC, and the Olympics? (00:48) Formula One’s chief says it’s “100% realistic” for a second China race to be added to the calendar. But when? And where? (5:38) and Mark shares some inside information about the Chinese men’s team ahead of the IIHF’s decision on Olympic participation. (9:12) Our guest this week is Stephanie Hsiao. She’s NFL China’s marketing director. We touch on whether the NFL will play a meaningful game in China, (17:44) why it’s important to develop football in China at the grassroots level, (21:16) the competition with other sports for time and mindshare (26:50), Tom Brady’s Mandarin-language web series and its impact on other NFL players (28:59), amplifying the NFL’s message on Chinese social media (32:21), how ASU's Jackson He has galvanized the Chinese public (34:20), how fans watch the NFL in China (37:13), developing an 800-word glossary of Chinese football terms (39:45), and plans for bringing NFL players to China post-Covid. (43:55)

Peng Shuai latest, Olympic boycott threats and esports reach a new level in China

The China Project — Fri, 26 Nov 2021 00:55:04 +0000

On the show this week, the Peng Shuai story goes international in a big way (3:10), the financial consequences of sports leagues leaving China (5:11), different types of Olympic boycotts and what’s most likely for Beijing 2022 (8:18).

Then we interview Joshua Lee from Perfect World, a massive Chinese gaming company, to talk about the recent win from Chinese gaming team EDG and more (13:26). Josh runs esports tournaments in China and talks about the advantages China has over the rest of the world in esports (15:17), EDG’s world championship victory and the mass celebration across China (16:35), offline gatherings for the online community (17:55), the typical esports demographic in China (19:09), a gaming debut at the 2022 Asian Games in Hangzhou (22:34), whether the Olympics need esports more than esports needs the Olympics (24:16), China’s new law restricting gaming time for minors (26:34), the true numbers of gamers in China (28:38), and the links between esports and traditional sports leagues (31:30).

Peng Shuai’s ‘statement,’ China’s first F1 driver, and a chat with Rowan Simons

The China Project — Thu, 18 Nov 2021 20:27:19 +0000

On a jam-packed show, we discuss the latest drama with the Chinese men’s hockey team – who may still get kicked out of the Olympics (0:45). China gets its first F1 driver, as Zhou Guanyu joins Valtteri Bottas at Alfa Romeo for next season (6:07). Then we turn to a China tennis story that’s gone global: What’s going on with Péng Shuài 彭帅, and what does this mean for the sport of tennis in China? (10:26), [note: segment recorded prior to release of Peng’s alleged statement]. And, we talk about China’s latest results in their FIFA World Cup qualifying matches and where it leaves them. Spoiler: they’re still not going to qualify for Qatar (16:50). This week, we also speak to Rowan Simons. He’s a familiar figure in football in China. In 2008, he wrote Bamboo Goalposts: One Man's Quest to Teach the People’s Republic of China to Love Football and founded ClubFootball, one of the largest youth soccer programs in Beijing. We talk about: the number of pitches built in China since a 50-point reform plan was initiated in 2015 (20:11), the issue with the campus football project (23:23), how bureaucracy hinders essential long-term planning in the sport (25:49), the different generations of football coaches in China and their different mentalities (31:16), why parents are the hope for Chinese football (33:34), the impact of the gaokao [China’s university entrance exam] on sports (35:20), whether China is potentially ready and willing to host a World Cup in 2034 (37:17), and why Rowan is cheering for China to qualify for the World Cup — and why he isn’t (43:16). A transcript of the podcast follows below! Transcript disclaimer We provide machine transcriptions for information purposes only. Anyone accessing our transcripts undertake responsibility for assessing the relevance and accuracy of the content. Before using the material contained in a transcript, listen to the podcast episode to assess the accuracy of the content. Haig Balian Welcome to the China Sports Insider Podcast today on a jam-packed show what is going on with the International Ice Hockey Federation? China gets its first f1 driver. The Women's Tennis Association wants some answers from China. What can we expect? And we interview China football expert, Rohan Simon s Mark, how are you? Mark Dreyer I am well, still as last week in my quarantine isolation, but excited to be getting out any day now. And then I'll have another week in Shanghai before hopefully coming back to Beijing as long as there aren't any more cases in which case, I'm stuck here for a little longer. Haig Balian Well, let's hope that doesn't happen. Let's hope that we get you back in Beijing soon. Okay, the first story, Mark, I don't I don't even know where to start with this because this is extremely confusing to me. So last week, as we talked about here, Luke Tardif, the new president of the International Ice Hockey Federation said unequivocally China would compete at the Olympics. Here's exactly what he said. Let me read this to you. "To be clear, the IIHF is not going to remove the Chinese team from the Olympic Games. The status of the national men's national team as a host nation, participants in the Olympic Ice Hockey Tournament was confirmed by Congress and remains unchanged". Today. Tardif told Canada sports net" I didn't want to do a diplomatic earthquake alone just coming as a new president" already said "Norway is ready". Mark, I have one question for you. What? Mark Dreyer This is been ridiculous. I first started writing about this in May of this year. And the whole thing has been on again off again. So many times where we I mean like we thought it was finally done and dusted. And we were just waiting for the Chinese Olympic roster to be released, which is supposed to be any day now. And now they're saying no, they're going to make another decision on November 25. So what is happening this week, and as of Wednesday, is when we're recording this week, tonight's there, the second of two games in Russia that's being evaluated by some officials from the IIHF. And based on that they will either decide that China can play and if they can, which of the Chinese players are going to be eligible. And that's a whole big thing, because some of those players have previously represented other countries. Some of those players haven't quite played with the Chinese team for long enough. So there's going to need to be a little bit of easing of the eligibility requirements. But more dramatically, if they decide they are not up to the standard necessary. They're going to kick them out. And Norway is in. Tardif said Norway stands ready. I mean, that is that is a worrying statement from the Chinese side. If if you're watching this Haig Balian in Kunlun Red Star's his first game, they came down from four zero to tie the game. So they tied the game and they lost in overtime. Hardly a worrying sort of result. And in my opinion, Mark Dreyer yeah, the first of the two games that are you know, being evaluated in Russia this week. Yeah, that's right, right. I mean, what are they going to find? What information are they going to get from from the second game that they don't already have? Whether they win, whether they lose, you know, like, it's not going to drastically change the bigger picture. We know who the players are, who are eligible, they either need to decide whether they're going to give them passports or not. And then they need to decide, is that team going to embarrass them? And are they prepared to live with the results? These are questions that should have been answered months and months and months ago, if not years ago. But hey, oh, yeah, it's three months to go. We still don't know what's happening. It's ridiculous. Haig Balian The question I had was, I mean, what what could have happened in the last week to sway Tardif? I mean, there was been a bunch of stories in international media, could that have swayed him? Mark Dreyer I think it's I mean, he actually, I mean, I've had some inquiries, I spoke to Canadian television. Last week, there's been some interest from from particularly from North America, they're beginning to hone in on the Olympics. And, and this story is now finally on their radar. The one thing I think that that's changed, and we talked about this last week, Tardif is the new guy in town, so he can basically he still has a little bit of time where he can say, this was not a decision made on my watch. I think it's wrong. Let's reverse decision before it's too late. And you know, he can kind of bring some changes the new regime, so we can still dump it on on the previous guy Rene Fasel, who was kind of leading the double ihf previously now, it sounds like Tardif has much better links with with Norway, and Fasel had links with China. Again, not not a great situation. If you're a Chinese hockey fan, you want to see the men's team in and at this point, we do like of course we did. Like we know they're not going to do well and it's going to be a bit of a mess, but it will be so unfair. That after everything that's the back and forth have gone through to kick them out now with less than three months to go Haig Balian Yeah, so on that note, so you were lucky, as you mentioned, you were on the national, which is the National nightly news program on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. You are great, by the way. So it was a piece on Kunlun Red Star and the mostly heritage players that are going to be on China's team. And this this aired just just a few hours ago, by the way, so we're taping on Wednesday afternoon, China time. And you could tell that the players there still seem to think that China would be at the Olympics. beyond anything else, it just seems cruel. So just just make a decision. get this over with pull the bandaid. Mark Dreyer This is this is like this is a staggering development. And there's been a lot this year but I was talking to members of the team like yesterday, people working with the team and they're basically just like, well, we know everything apart from just a couple of details. There's a couple of decisions that need to be made on some of the players because eligibility but basically we were ready to go we're just ironing out the final you know, names on the roster. Now suddenly, it's like what roster. So anyway, November 25 is D Day again until the next one, but that's that's the latest that we have. Haig Balian Can we talk about something that makes me feel a little less irked? Yes, I am. Okay. China has its first F1 driver. His name is Zhou Guanyu and here's his message on Xinhua news. Zhou Guanyu Hi guys. It's going Zhou here. I'm super honored to become the Formula One driver for alpha romeo racing oland team. Formula One is always my dream since I was a child you know, I've been pushing so hard together with my team I cool all the time, try to you know, push over the limit. Try to reach that goal and I'm just so thankful become too so very thanks for all the guys who support me all the way through my journey so far. Next year is gonna be a super difficult and also important year for me. So my plan, my target will be try to learn as much as I could not just with the team, also with my very good experience teammate Valtteri Bottas. And that is helping out to put some great results on the table in the in the next year. And make sure you guys follow me all the races next year, see you guys on the track soon. Haig Balian So Mark, who is Zhou Gyanyuand why is this a big deal? Mark Dreyer Well, simply but he is a future superstar. I honestly believe that I had the privilege to commentate on the Asian F3 Championship earlier this year, which he won. And they had, they had five race weekends. Basically back to back compounded into it. It's a month-long thing in the Middle East because of travel restrictions. That's where a lot of the racing was happening. And this guy is great. Not only is he good on the track, but he's just a delight to interview and so on and off the track. You could make a case of that, you know, he's not the best driver in the wings that there's another guy, Piastri in Formula Two who's currently leading the formula two championships, Zhou Guanyu is second at the moment. Maybe Piastri is going to be a little bit miffed that he's not getting the seats. But this is not a question of you know, it's Chinese money buying the seats, as we've seen many drivers at the back of the grid in f1 happening before so here's the legit talent. He's been racing in Europe since his his middle teenage years. And he has performed at every level. So I'm fantastically excited to see him get the seat. So he was with the Alpine team, formerly the Renault team with Fernando Alonso was a sort of development driver this year. And the worry was that there wasn't going to be a seat for him in this team. So what has happened is he's switching over to Alfa Romeo. So he's cut all ties with Alpine. So that is why this has opened up, but it's good for them. It's good for the sport, it's I have to say that there is a bit of a disappointment. They've already said that the the Chinese Grand Prix in 2022 will not will not happen because of COVID but, on the plus side, they have extended the the Chinese F1 deal until 2025. So he will get the chance to race in his in his home Grand Prix. In the early you know, 2005 to 2010. That kind of golden period. A lot of fans came to Shanghai to and to watch the Grand Prix and it kind of tailed off a little bit, but hopefully this can get it right back going. It's great for the sponsors. It's like I said, I'm super happy and and it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Haig Balian So so in that message, Zhou mentioned that, you know, next year is going to be a hard year for him. What do we know about this new team? Can we what kind of results can we expect next year? Mark Dreyer Look, I mean, the fact that he is his go-to seat on the grid is impressive and stuff. He's racing alongside Valtteri Bottas, who is Lewis Hamilton's teammate right now at Mercedes. So that's the kind of caliber of driver he is he's going to be up against. Be very, very interesting to see how he compares. Obviously, Hamilton is is very much the leading driver and, you know, Joe will be expected to play sort of the backup role. But of course, there's always battles within a team as well. He's not going to be winning races, he's not gonna be winning the titles anytime soon. But if he can perform and if he can kind of outperform what that car is expected to do, then who knows what could happen in a few years f1 Of course, is is so much about the team. But hey, he's got a seat. And that's fantastic. This is a huge we've been waiting for this moment for decades. Haig Balian Big news in the tennis world this week. What is going on Mark? Mark Dreyer Well, a little under two weeks ago, Chinese tennis player punctuate made some very serious allegations about a former Chinese leader on Weibo. Now, the post was quickly deleted. And we hadn't really heard anything since now. The Daily Mail of all people not my favorite newspaper, they'd wrote a story saying where is Peng Shuai? Why haven't we heard from her? And I was like, What on earth you thinking when you you know, after news like this, she's not going to be shouting from the rooftops. But I think what this piece did, is that it actually a lot of tennis players started to say, hey, what's what's going on? Why haven't we heard from her and we've had some statements from the WTA. That's the Women's Tennis Association, the men's tour, which is the ATP and then a lot of current and former players, Martina Navratilova. Billie Jean King, Chris Everett Novak Djokovic, they've all been talking about this, and Naomi Osaka as well, today. Yeah. I mean, this is really like everyone is talking about this story in the tennis world. Now, again, as I said, it's no surprise that we haven't heard from her Do we know where she is? Well, there's rumors flying about nothing that we can substantiate here. But what I think is most interesting is that the WTA, obviously bongs main tour now it should be said she, she hasn't played for a while. And she basically retired because she's had some pretty serious injuries. And she's mid-30s. But she's still well known and liked by all the people on the tour. And the tour has basically said, We need answers from China. Can you guarantee, you know, her safety, what's going on? We need an investigation into this. They didn't stop that. They said, We are going into this with our eyes open. I'm paraphrasing here. But basically, we are aware of what this might do to our business by effectively calling China out on this. And we're prepared to effectively not have tennis tournaments in China. Now. In some sports, you'd be like, well, that's okay. In tennis, like half the year is in China. Not quite but 11 tournaments so this is huge, Haig Balian including the WTA finals in Shenzen. Yes. Mark Dreyer Yeah, the biggest event of the year outside the grand slams, but the season-ending finale, when that was announced, in partnership with a real estate developer called gem Dale, that was the richest tournament in the world, men's or women's, like absolutely, absolutely crazy. $14 million, which is more than the men's we're getting for their season-ending ATP finals. Haig Balian You know, in the last couple of years, of course, WTA hasn't come to China at all. And I and I mean, are they sort of realizing there's life outside of China? Mark Dreyer I think that's exactly right. You know, two years ago, I, I think they were so embedded in the fabric of, of China with their tour, given those 11 tournament's but having, you know, with China still at COVID zero, and basically canceling all international sports events, the rest of the sports world has moved on. So the WTA has learnt to live without China. And, again, I'm not going to speculate whether they would have put this statement out, you know, a year ago, two years ago, right, and they're doing it differently. But I think it's much easier from a business perspective to think you know, what, we can have other tournaments. We can feel the calendar, and we're not we're not done if if China decides it really doesn't like the things that we're saying, then, you know, what, life is still gonna go on? Haig Balian Mark, what happens next? Mark Dreyer Well, so far, there's been no reaction from the Chinese side. It's kind of unclear that who exactly the WTA is, is expecting a response from it came up at the Foreign Ministry press conference, and the response there was that it's not a diplomatic matter. So no real response. The one thing I want to say about this is is there's parallels to what happened with the NBA when the Daryl Morey tweet devastated their business in China two years ago. The difference there is that that was a huge story in China. Everyone was talking about that and a lot of anti-NBA feelings came from Chinese basketball fans. The difference here is that this story has been completely eradicated from Chinese media, no one's talking about it. So the vast majority of people don't know that is happening. So that's the big difference. And until China's ready to host sports events, again, there's no real decision that needs to be made. So I think you know 2022 is already looking tough for tournaments in China. And then maybe things will have died down. I mean, again too early to say but I'm not an expecting We're gonna hear either from Park or from the Chinese side anytime soon. Haig Balian Mark you you teed this up last week. But you know, the Chinese men's national football team played two qualifiers this past week. To have a chance to qualify they really needed wins. Instead, they earned a pair of one draws against Oman and against Australia. You watched the games. What did you think? Mark Dreyer Yeah, well, slightly against my better nature. I did stay up to watch the game. Again, let's Haig Balian just say these games started at 11 pm. That's way past my bedtime. This is versus Mark Dreyer it's also because it's also because it's ridiculously hot in the Middle East where they're playing. So they're deliberately have very, very late kickoffs, basically the polar opposite of the other game we were talking about before the show hide where your Canadian team was in minus, I think 14 degrees Celsius in Edmonton against the Mexicans. I mean, come on, they only beat them to one after, like playing in the snow. Because it'd be more than that. No, Haig Balian I can spend about 10 minutes just talking about this Mark. This is not the CONCACAF show, I would play in the northernmost capital in an outdoor stadium in the middle of November. I think that's genius. But back to China though. Wow. I mean, it's it's I suppose you could say like a result against Australia. Any result against Australia is great, but it's just it just seems like too little too late. Mark Dreyer Yeah, this sort of limping to to to missing out. To be honest, as expected, no one was was expecting that China was going to qualify onto these groups. The game itself was weird for a couple of reasons. Australia scored first and then the Chinese equalizer. It was it was a penalty from handball, but it was one of those ones with var, where the play no one had called for it for no one had appealed for humble, no one had seen it. The play had gone all the way up the other end, Australia had an attack and then that had finished. And then suddenly the refs getting the word from upstairs. And we're thinking like, well, which, where is it? Like, what incident are they looking at? And of course, you know, it was handball it was but it just disrupts the flow of the game. The other thing that was super interesting is that there are about 2000 Chinese fans there. Now, let me tell you, they don't all live in, in the Middle East. Apparently, some of them flew in as far away as as Ethiopia. My guess is that this is coordinated. They're trying to you know...This is technically a China home game. Right? Right. So they're trying to recreate some sort of home atmosphere, but they don't want people going from China, because then they'll have to risk them coming back to China and they got the quarantine restrictions and you know, the infection risk and all that sort of stuff. So they're basically taking like Chinese from around the world and flying them in to, you know, to the Middle East for the John again. It's kind of crazy. Haig Balian With the Chinese Men's World Cup campaign floundering once again, what better time to take stock of football development in China. Rowan Simon's is a familiar figure in football in China in 2009. He wrote Bamboo Goalposts: one man's quest to teach the People's Republic of China to love football. He's also the chairman of club football, Beijing, club football operates the largest independent grassroots football network in the capital region. Rowan, thank you so much for coming on the China sports Insider PodCast. Rowan Simons Thanks very much. Great to be here. Haig Balian Back in 2015. You and Mark were on CCTVs sports scene to talk about China's then-newly unveiled 50 Point reform plan for football, you know, you're generally pretty positive about the reforms and want to play a clip from the appearance. Rowan Simons So the President has laid out a vision for what we should do, but actually to implement that is extremely hard. So we still have to deal with a lack of pitches. With the lack of coaching in schools. These are all very serious issues. But now, Minister of Education, Ministry of Land, other authorities at every level across China have to address the issues before they fail to address those issues. So once again, I think it's a very historic move that portends very well for Chinese football, but the devil is in the detail and in the implementation. Haig Balian So there's a lot there. So let's talk about pitches. First. And for me, this is a personal issue, you know, my stepdaughter, who's 15 She plays in this Youth League, and they play twice, twice a week in Shunyi, which is, you know, very far from where we live. And when we get there, the pitches are very small, and they play seven aside. So that's, I guess, a long way of asking whether, you know, more pitches have been built to develop grassroots in China since you were on since 2015. Rowan Simons Yeah, I mean, that's probably the best place to start. If you're looking for positives. It's one of the easy things to do. You know, there are hard things to do in football and there are easy things. The easy things usually involve money. So if you've got money to throw at things and football pitches is quite easy. And there are significantly more football pitches in the country than there were back then. So that's been very positive. And not just public pitches, but in schools as well. But it's much, much harder to build the software. So building the leagues and the communities that use those football pitches. I think, you know, also, some of the development of football pitches has not been very rational, a lot of it has has resulted in many pitches in one area and still no pitches in other areas. So those pictures that have been developed often have very close competitors. So neither of them operate at a profit. And of course, in northern China, the weather is a major impact. You know, in winter, probably about three months, pictures can't be used. I think another thing to mention there is that, you know, fives and sevens pitches have been a very big development. But there's actually, I think, less 11 or side pitches than there were before. And some of the cippic city operators that used to have 11 side pitches have now cut them up into fives and sevens. So yes, more people able to play pitches are closer to where they live, but probably not great in terms of developing China's ability to compete at 11 asides, which is of course, what they're using the World Cup, Haig Balian they won't play seven a side at World Cup ever. That's that's just that's just not gonna happen. Rowan Simons There's futsal. But yeah, no workup, you really need to have 11. So I think, harder and harder to find 11 aside pitches Mark Dreyer Rowan, and do you think there's too much of a focus on numbers here? I mean, all the stories you see written about it is, as you know, this many 10s of 1000s of pitches built in this many 10s of 1000s of academies and this many millions of buyers, you know, supposedly playing the game at different levels. Now, is it? Is it just the fact that these are targets that have never really achieved it? Or is it or is it something else? Rowan Simons Well, I mean, we wouldn't really expect to see any results at international level for another decade or so if you're starting with four-year-olds, and the average age is 24. And International, that's 20 years away. So we're only about five years in, you know, the campus football project has introduced football into schools, whereas always before sport wasn't really part of the academic curriculum. So yes, that does mean millions of kids are getting exposed to football at an early age, which has got to be good. I think the issue there is that very few sports teachers are actually trained as football coaches. And that's something that still needs to happen. So I think in a lot of cases, those sports teachers perhaps aren't making the best use of the football time, in a progressive way. In terms of sort of general public, I think, yeah, more pitches in more convenient locations means more people are getting out to play. But it's still quite a nice activity. You know, football, even, even at the smaller sided level, is quite hard to organize, you need a large bunch of players if you're going to put together a team to play in a league, etc. Whereas I think basketball probably, you know, two against to three against three can be quite an easy way to get going. So football leads a lot more organization to be run at a competition level. So yeah, the numbers are good. I mean, I think there's a, there's a problem with that in as much as football really needs to grow from the grassroots, which I've been recruiting for for more than 20 years. But the campus football project immediately puts a stake back in, in control. If you've got kids who play football, a lot of time and efforts required to get into the matches, a lot of travel a lot of an expense, but campus football actually takes away responsibility from parents and puts it back on the state. So I think that's not had a greater impact in terms of developing people's own responsibility. Mark Dreyer Rohan, I distinctly remember when we were on that show in 2015, right after that the 50 Point Plan was announced. And you know, you'd reference you've been talking about this for years. And you said to me, this should feel like Christmas, basically everything that you had been preaching to anyone who listened it was was being announced in this plan. So what happened? Did, did you get your stocking full? Rowan Simons Yeah, no, I remember that very clearly. I think I said it's Christmas and birthday all rolled into one. Yeah. It's a great plan. It's a 50 point plan. I mean, very detailed. The first part of it talks about the separation of the China Football Association from the government, which has been partially achieved. The second stage is about grassroots popularization of the game and the development of a small number of clubs who compete at the top level in Asia, which has been achieved, albeit with imported players. And then only the long term plans are there to about, you know, hosting the World Cup winning the World Cup, which I think was a mistake by international media just focusing on China wants to win the World Cup. So the plan was right, you know, football people to run football popularize the game, bring it into schools and develop from there. It hasn't happened as the plan has laid out. And I think there are a number of reasons probably the biggest one is short termism. In China, government leaders tend to be in place for four years or five years. So they're really looking for results over that timeframe. The business people, the tycoons that invested into football, also looking for a very quick return on investment, either financial or political. But as we mentioned a bit earlier, this is a 20 year plan a 30 year plan. So I don't think many people in China have the patience to really do it right from the grassroots. Haig Balian Let me play another clip from that appearance. And you were asked Rowan, about whether you thought the reforms would work. And here's what you have to say about that, Rowan Simons you know, if anything, it just gives people a feeling that football has an opportunity to become the people's game, which it never has in China. Suddenly, within the plan, there are some very clear indications that the CFA must be opened up to stakeholders within the game. So suddenly, organizations like our own club football will be looking to play a more active role within the association. Haig Balian So has club football played a larger role in football development in China since that time? Rowan Simons well, we've rejoined the Beijing Football Association, which is, you know, the regulator, in charge of football in Beijing. And we've certainly made efforts to try and be more involved in some of the competitions they run. But more or less, I think we're still pretty much an independent organization. We work with a lot of schools, those schools tend to be international schools, or bilingual schools or private schools, rather than state schools, we run our own league competition for about 100 teams. There's about 25, teams from club football and the other 75 teams come from other clubs. So still, more or less, I think it's an independent organization. But we are proud members of the Beijing FA, we attend their meetings when they're held. And we're always available to support the wider game, within the official system. It is sometimes hard, I think the Ministry of Education is quite tough for us. They're obviously not that they are responsible for youth football in China, but they're not directly linked into the football industry worldwide. So that's been a bit of a tougher nut for us to crack. So I think more or less, it's still independent, we rely on the support of schools and on the support of parents. But we are members and therefore, you know, open and active in terms of exchange within that. Within that forum. Mark Dreyer Rowan, you and I have talked on several times previously about, you know, the, in terms of independence, you know, the independence of the CFA, the Chinese Football Association, and the suppose it's separation from the state, as mentioned in that in that 50 Point ban, and you earlier, you'd sort of said, well, it's, you know, partly been achieved. Can you just expand on that a little bit? I mean, is it just a question of keeping FIFA happy? Because that's in their statutes? You know, or is it? This is vital for the for the future growth of the game here in China? Rowan Simons Yeah, I've kind of like revised my position on that. I mean, before, I mean, way back before the reforms happened, I think I was probably the only person who is stating in in state media, that FIFA rules demand that the government remove itself from the CFA, but, you know, China is still China, isn't it? So if you were to completely separate, then you lose all kinds of power, and all kinds of influence within society. So I think it does need a kind of like a hybrid model, a complete divorce leaves them with with no support from government at all, you know, that the top two people at the CFA are both from the private sector. Certainly the Secretary General has a background in sports. So I think, you know, some efforts have been made, but at the same time, there's still a lot of interference. So it's a tricky one, I can understand why a complete separation would make it hard. You know, Haig Balian it's want to go back to one thing you mentioned earlier, coaches at the school level, not really using their time in the best possible way when they're when they're with their young players. What what are some of the things that you've seen that leads you to say that, Rowan Simons well, you know, football is a specialist subject isn't, it's not a PE class, I think without any kind of training at all. The teachers wouldn't be equipped to teach progression. And also, perhaps, you know, a lot of the experiences that come out of the football system about games that you play with kids to encourage their interest, balanced between left and right foot, I still think there is still an issue in China about the attitude of coaches. Certainly at club football, everything's about encouraging the kids being very upbeat, very positive. Everyone's a winner, no one's a loser. And I think they're still amongst some of the Chinese coaches, perhaps the older ones. It's worse situation still rather sort of military attitude, looking down at the kids shouting at the kids we have even seen in recent months, some, you know, awful reports of beating the kids. You know, this type of thing obviously has no place whatsoever. In football, I think there was, there is a change and younger coaches are getting better. I think just around the time of the reforms. There's a magazine called Beijing football, which is a state-run magazine, and on its front cover, it featured a club football coach and one of our junior players. And the club football coach was kneeling. And the kid had his boot up on the coach's knee, and the coach was like rubbing his boots, which is quite a famous scoring celebration. And that for me very much summed up the difference in attitude that the coaches could come down to the level of the kids talk to the kids as equals. And so that was also a bit of a symbolic change of recognizing that perhaps the European method of very positive, very approachable, fun, make it fun for everyone inclusive type of coaching program is more healthy for kids, but it can be hard for older coaches to to adapt to that, Mark Dreyer more generally, how would you say your optimism or pessimism has fluctuated? I suppose over the years? Do you still feel the same passion? Rowan Simons Yeah, I mean, the passion still there, for sure. I mean, I know football is a great solution. For China, for everyone, you know, not every child likes it. But if they do love it, it will be you know, the best time of their week is still the best time of my week when I got to play with some, some old friends. Not quite the speed before but still enjoy it immensely. So I think, you know, the principles are right, the whole world has learned those principles over the last 120 years, and China has to learn them too. I think I did an op-ed piece a couple of years ago, in which I said that more money has been wasted in these football reforms than in the history of sport. And I think that's right, because a lot of the money or went in at the top end, you know, huge expense on foreign players on foreign coaches, a lot of money did go into infrastructure, a lot of the professional clubs, really improved their nutrition, rehabilitation services, etc. Some of it went to the right areas, but a huge amount has been wasted. The hope and Chinese football is the same as it was before, which is parents, a new generation of parents, they are obviously absolutely dedicated to their kids development. A lot of them really looking now at the traditional system, with its pressures of homework, etc. I mean, even the government now has, has recognized this with the double reduction policy, trying to give kids more freedom and space to play. So for us, always, the hope in Chinese football is from parents waking up to the benefits of the game. Mark Dreyer So that's a really interesting comparison that you made that but it seems to me that until you know they still have the academic pressure with the gaokao, right, the university entrance exam. And so do you notice an age at which kids basically drop off? We spoke to John Howse who's looking at hockey development, and he said at certain age, you know, 10-12, whatever development just drops off, like suddenly, shit gets real, basically, for the parents. And they're like, Okay, let's, let's forget all these extracurricular stuff. And get back to the academics because we still have this exam pressure. Rowan Simons Yeah, there is a huge drop-off. Absolutely incredible cliff that hits it 11 or 12, when, as you say, when they go to middle school, we don't see that amongst our international students as much. If they're playing football regularly by then they'll probably play it for the rest of their lives. But sure, for that for the Chinese kids, it drops off very, very significantly. This is again, your part of what we're trying to do at club football is to build real love for the game for the whole for whole of your life. So that's where our league system comes in. So we have three levels, you know, entry-level, a skills League, where the kids start to get a little bit of competitive practice, and they're moving into leagues where they're playing and regular competition. So it's all about progressing the kids through the stages and obviously trying to bring the parents along with but that's a massive, massive problem, as you say in ice hockey in all sports. In China, Yeah, a huge drop-off once they hit middle school, but you know, now we see some reports that the gaokao and some of the other exams will include sports points within the total. And I think even some provinces that are increasing the percentage of sports points towards exams, so that that should help as well. Haig Balian Can I play one more clip? Mark Dryer He loves a bit of media. Haig Balian I love media. So you were both asked, in that, in that interview, or you were both asked whether you thought China would ever host the World Cup. And Mark, you pointed out that FIFA is rules prohibit any Asian country from hosting again until 2034. After Qatar, Mark Dreyer I think since then they've slightly given themselves an out but things have potentially changed since then just throw that in, but surely carry on. Okay. Haig Balian So at the time 2034 was another 19 years away. And Mark, you made the point, that's probably enough time to get a team that's not going to embarrass themselves. Rowan, here is what you said, Rowan Simons Yes, I think you know, the World Cup has to come. I in fact, think that China World Cup would benefit from FIFA, deciding it many, many years ahead. And then China will start with kids of the age that would be able to participate in that world cup. So woke up as eight years ahead, means they will focus on 14-year-old kids is not going to work a World Cup throughout 2034, but agreed much earlier, than you would see China actually implementing a system from birth. And that's what we really need. So the longer the lead time to that World Cup, the better. Haig Balian So I'm going to ask you to speculate, if FIFA announced tomorrow that China is awarded the 2034 World Cup, is that enough time to develop the kind of talent you need to be competitive. Rowan Simons Just trying to calculate, we're in 2021... 34. So 13 years later, 11-year-olds, so that means kids who are 11. And therefore the answer is no. Because if you start with kids that are 11, their competitors in that world cup will have been playing since the age of four. So on average, they're going to have about seven years headstart on the Chinese kid. So I mean, that'd be better than nothing. But yeah, it's gonna be longer than that. Mark Dreyer You talked earlier about the cycles of officials and so on? Who's going to be who's still going to be in those positions of power when the World Cup actually arrives? Rowan Simons Yes, that's a fair point. I don't know, maybe there'll be a bigger sort of national drive. If they had that type of a lead time, then the whole country. I mean, then there is no point focusing on your 16-year-olds who will be too old for the World Cup. Right. So So perhaps, you know, people will be bigger than themselves and stand up and support a nationwide plan. But I don't see that happening. I think politics at FIFA probably isn't that advanced either. So probably be the normal seven or eight years ahead. But you know, 20 years has already been wasted. I always say to, to those of old-timers I meet and I've been talking about this for 20 years, and we've been through four or five, six cycles of, of short term leaders. If they started back when, when I first said it, we would now be there with a generation who are representing China but but you know, those opportunities have been missed in missed and missed again. The still an extent, you know that they just go around the wheel in the 1950s, they sent all the young kids or the youth team to Hungary, because Hungary was a pretty strong team at that time in the 80s. They sent them to Brazil. And now they're sending them to France and Portugal. But the idea that you could take 16-year-olds who are not good enough to play in Europe, and then send them to Europe, to private schools, in the kind of dream that maybe one of them would find is scoring boots is not going to happen, but they go round and round in a circle because at least that type of policy has the outside potential of maybe working. Whereas my call for full generational change, as you say absolutely will not work for the leader who's in position today. So they tend to say Well, thanks very much and piss off now. Mark Dreyer Rowan let's look at a more short-term realistic proposal barring a miracle. China's not going to qualify for 2022 the Qatar World Cup but with the expanded World Cup in 2026 There is a realistic chance so Okay, say China gets in it's not going to do well but it does have that glory you know that that that that national passion and getting people around that how much could just qualifying for the World Cup in only the second time does history how much can that do for the game? Rowan Simons In general terms, that would be, that'd be rather good. Wouldn't it? China would be delighted to take part, but I think within the football community, they are all very, already very skeptical about these things. So there'll be a sort of, a lot of backlash saying we only got in because they increased the numbers. And then when we got there, we still didn't score any goals or, so I think people are quite cynical. About methods of getting into the world cup when perhaps under a traditional system, you wouldn't have achieved it like with the foreign players, et cetera. But sure. I think, if China did make it, so that would be yeah, it'd be a big thing. The world cups are obviously always a huge thing in China. So to see China there yeah, I think in the end they would embrace it. They would be happy and delighted to have joined the party, even though it would have been a much lower entry barrier. I think, you talk about China hosting the world cup. I still think that they will be reticent about doing that because of the potential for loss of face.. Do they really want to host the world cup and where they auto automatically qualify and then get beaten in all three games that would almost be intolerable. So I don't know whether or not they would make the decision to host it whiskey. They could obviously do very easily and very well, whether it might be. Be too risky in terms of the, the loss of face. Haig Balian Have you been watching the qualifiers? Rowan Simons Yes, I have. I'm really conflicted when China plays on one side and I'd love to see them do well, but on the other side if they did well and got into the world cup, that would be great for football development in China. But then on the other side, if they were by fluke or, by some method managed to make it into it, then there's a real danger that everyone would say, ah, problem solved. The reforms have been a success. We no longer lead to do any reforms. Whereas China still needs very deep grassroots reforms and a different view of the people towards football as a participation, sport and clubs as part of civic society. So I conflicted if they lose, I think, great. Everyone's going to be in the doldrums. There's still chance that reform might take place. And then, on the flip side it would be great if China made it in. So yeah, watch it with her. Two faces Mark Dreyer Rowan. You talked about the risk there and the pressures involved for those in charge. At the high levels of football. The president here of course, is known as a big soccer fan and he has driven in at least in part this football drive that we've seen over the last few years, there's two sides to that coin, right? It obviously brings a lot of increased attention to the game and get some support, but then of course, the pressure to succeed and the fear about. Where do you come out on that? Is this generally a good thing or is it there's too much of that? The risks and the fear associated as well? Rowan Simons I think it has to be a good thing. A president who supports football, who has led the development of a long-term plan, which makes complete sense. Forced by his own love of the game, everyone in China to love the game and think about the game and care about the game. That's got to be positive, isn't it? But yeah, it's the implementation again? It's immediately after the reforms came in is what can I do to show presidency that I'm a fan that I'm a supporter. So they bought the clubs. They brought in the foreign players, they won the Asian champions league. They built pitches. All these things can be done with money. But the long-term. Changing of attitudes to embrace civic society, to embrace communities and clubs and enjoyment and love of the game at the grassroots is a much harder thing to do. So I just come back again and say, it's all about the parents. As a parent, They are very highly educated now, and I'm very positive about their kids' development and the more and more of them are turning to sport as a very healthy way for their kids, not just physical health, but mental health and sociability in psychology, all of these things can benefit. So in the end it will be a middle-class. Which is ironic is, in the rest of the world, it was a worker's game, always rather than a middle-class game in China. It's going to be a middle-class game that, that people are looking for quality of life and turn towards the game. It can't be forced from the top down. It has to come from the bottom up. So I think in terms of what we see at club football, we, when we started, we were entirely foreign. A hundred percent foreigners now we're about 80% Chinese. A significant numbers of Chinese. Who are opening up to the benefits of football as a participation sport. And that for me is always, the hope is still is the hope. And, seeing those kids out there enjoying the game is what keeps us going or glad we could end on a high note. Haig Balian Rowan Simons is the chairman of club football, Beijing, and the author of bamboo goalposts one man's quest to teach the people's Republic of China to love football. He joined us from his home in Beijing. Thanks Rowan. That was Rowan Simons. We talked to him earlier this week. What I thought was really interesting where some of the parallels between what he was saying and what John Howse was saying last week on the show about hockey parents and about some of the abuse that, that he's seen in the coaching ranks or equity, what do you think. Mark Dreyer Yeah, absolutely. It's, I guess it's not surprising that some of the same things do exist. And again, we don't want to dwell on the negatives. I think both, both John and Rowan have said that things have improved over the time they've been here, but some of this, or, more military coaching style, that's been instilled in the older coaches, unfortunately, still lingers. Even though it is improving, it was funny because. When he finished, I was about to say, I don't want to, I want to finish on a negative note. I think it's sometimes too easy when you look. At Chinese football, even, many people don't speak to you, passionately foreign or Chinese wants Chinese football to succeed. But some of the missteps that have been taken make it hard to do that. And it can be quite frustrating, but I was going to say, what's the one thing that you're most optimistic about just to, turn it around back to earlier and let's always try and be hopeful and optimistic and positive. And he already did that. I think. It's the love of the game, not everyone loves it but, billions of people do love the sport. There's a reason why it's called, the beautiful game, the global game. It's awesome. That's why Rowan and literally billions of other people have got into the sport and hopefully, and we all still hope. I think that can be the case here, Haig Balian That’s the show this week, if you like the show, the best way to help out is to follow. Ever you listen to podcast, rate us, leave a comment. You can find us at supchina.com/podcast or search for China Sports Insider podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you want to get in touch, the best way is probably Twitter. Mark. Where can people find you? Mark Dreyer Yeah, Twitter DreyerChina. That's D R E Y E R. China. And yeah, we'd love to hear from people. Tell us what you think about the show. What do you want us to talk about? It's been really encouraging to get some positive feedback so far, but things you don't like, things you do. If you want to come on the show, Hey we'll see what you have to say. Any feedback gratefully received? Haig Balian Absolutely. And I at twitter.com/haigbalian we will see you next week.

Luge crash mars Olympic test event, Zhang Weili loses UFC decision, and Jon Howse talks hockey in China

The China Project — Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:28:22 +0000

This week on the China Sports Insider Podcast, a near-fatal accident at Beijing's Olympic luge track at a test event leaves a Polish athlete recovering in a Chinese hospital (1:52), former UFC strawweight champion Zhang Weili loses her bid to reclaim her title in a gritty split decision against Rose Namajunas in front of a heavily partisan crowd at Madison Square Garden (8:15), Formula 1 extends the Chinese Grand Prix through 2025 despite a third straight COVID cancellation (14:43), and China attempts to keep its slim FIFA World Cup hopes alive with a couple of qualifiers this week (17:03). Mark and Haig also talk to Jon Howse about hockey development in China (18:41). Howse arrived from Canada in 2015 to coach hockey and describes the highs of working with legendary Chinese figure skater Chen Lu and her skating academies, as well as the lows of witnessing physical abuse by coaches against youth team players (23:40). Howse also discusses how quickly hockey infrastructure is growing in China (27:42), predicts when a China-born athlete might make it to the NHL (28:30), defines what would constitute "success" for China’s national team at the Olympics (30:27), explains why the female side of hockey in China is a bright spot for development (30:27), and tells stories of performance bonuses being offered to kids as young as six (36:45).

The hundred day countdown begins, IOC releases its playbook, and an interview with USA Today’s Dan Wolken

The China Project — Thu, 04 Nov 2021 21:08:58 +0000

Welcome to the China Sports Insider Podcast on the Sinica Network! If it's about sports and there's a China angle, we'll talk about it. This week: fewer than a hundred days to go to the Beijing Olympics, and foreign athletes have been trickling in for test events. What's happening? What are they saying? (0:49) The IOC released their playbook — their game plan for the Olympics. How will visiting media and athletes react to Beijing’s health and safety measures? (6:15) Then we talk to USA Today’s Dan Wolken. He's covered four Olympics, and he's coming to Beijing. What does he make of the playbook? (12:39) And we end with the saga of China's men’s national ice hockey team. Their story is getting a lot of attention from foreign media. At the Olympic tournament they'll be in a group with Canada, USA, and Germany, and there's a real chance they’ll get blown out. How did we get here? What’s the way out? (34:39) Update: Since we recorded this, the IIHF has announced that China will not be kicked out of the Olympic tournament. For more stories read China Sports Insider Find Mark Dreyer on Twitter Find Haig Balian on Twitter Learn about the Olympic playbooks

The NHL returns to the Olympics, China’s men’s ice hockey team, the Beijing 2022 bubble, and much more

The China Project — Sun, 05 Sep 2021 19:28:01 +0000

One of the marquee events of the Winter Olympics got a boost this week when the NHL announced its players would play in the ice hockey tournament. Why is that a big deal? China's group includes powerhouses Canada, the USA, and Germany. Will they score a goal? With just five months to go until the start of the Olympics, there are still a lot of questions. Will spectators be allowed into any of the venues? Will athletes be forced to quarantine? The Winter Sports Expo, Asia's largest, is taking place in Shougang, site of the aerials competition and home to Beijing's Olympic organizing committee. Haig was there.

Tokyo Olympics roundup: China comes up just short, trouble with weightlifting, and a new Axios poll on the Beijing Games

The China Project — Sun, 08 Aug 2021 19:26:54 +0000

The Tokyo Games wrapped up with a flurry of gold for the USA. That means China comes in second in the official medal table. Should China be disappointed? China won seven weightlifting gold in Tokyo. There's news out today that the IOC may drop the event in Paris. What does that mean for China? A new Axios poll finds that over 50% of Americans think China shouldn't be allowed to host the Winter Games in 2022 . Expect more stories like this in the coming months. For more stories read China Sports Insider Find Mark Dreyer on Twitter at https://twitter.com/DreyerChina Find Haig Balian at Twitter at https://twitter.com/haigbalian

China just might come out on top in Tokyo, Su Bingtian’s incredible sprint, Rule 50 put to the test, and much more.

The China Project — Thu, 05 Aug 2021 19:24:33 +0000

All week long we’ve been saying that the USA will top the official standings. Now we're not so sure. Su Bingtian came out of nowhere to win his heat with a time of 9.83, a new Asian record. What does that mean for athletics in China? Two cases put the IOC's Rule 50 to the test. And the Chinese Basketball Association has suspended its games as part of an effort to control a new outbreak of Covid. Did we mention that Beijing 2022 is six months away? For more stories read China Sports Insider Find Mark Dreyer on Twitter at https://twitter.com/DreyerChina Find Haig Balian at Twitter at https://twitter.com/haigbalian

22 gold (and counting) for China, Gong Lijiao is finally the Olympic shot-put champion, ice hockey news, and much more

The China Project — Sun, 01 Aug 2021 19:22:03 +0000

As the first week of the Tokyo games winds down we take stock of China's impressive haul of gold and talk about the the heated rivalry between China and Japan. Also: after coming up short in previous games, shot-putter Gong Lijiao finally comes up with a dominant performance to take the gold medal, some ice hockey news, and much more. For more stories read China Sports Insider Find Mark Dreyer on Twitter at https://twitter.com/DreyerChina Find Haig Balian at Twitter at https://twitter.com/haigbalian

China has a golden start to the Tokyo Olympics, surprise losses in women’s volleyball and mixed doubles table tennis, and much more

The China Project — Wed, 28 Jul 2021 19:11:03 +0000

Today: the Tokyo Olympics. Simone Biles is out of the Olympics. After their gold-medal dives, two champion synchronized divers gave a candid interview about the pressures of competing while their bodies are still growing. China is at the top of the table with 10 golds (so far) with some surprising wins. But the women's football team had a disappointing run, and their stellar volleyball team is in a rut. What's happening? No fans in the stands in Tokyo, but the IOC wants fans at Beijing 2022. Could there be a way to make that happen? And, as always, Boycott Watch. Check out China Sports Insider Find Mark Dreyer on Twitter at https://twitter.com/DreyerChina Find Haig Balian at Twitter at https://twitter.com/haigbalian